Marathon Training Thread - Week Ending 10/10

Race Houston

Goal 2:35

M- 9M @ 6:40

T- 10M @ 6:30

W- 9M @ 6:35

R- 10M (2Mwu, 6M @ 5:28, 2Mcd)

F- 14M @ 6:40

S- 6M @ 6:25

S- OFF

Total = 58

1/2Mar in a few weeks. 1:13-1:14 goal/test.

I want you people to start doing a 30 miler every 3 weeks during base training. That way, maybe you won't fall apart so much in the closing miles of your next marathon.

Congrats to those who ran at Chicago. We were thinking about you! Sounds like the conditions were less than ideal, it's too bad that weather & conditions have such a huge impact on a marathon. But you should all feel good about your training & hard work! I've only skimmed the detailed reports so far but am looking forward to reading them in more depth.

Congrats also to those who ran the weekend before last. It was great to meet Spaceman in Maine- congrats again on the win!!

My race went pretty well at Maine (already a week and a half ago!). The course was nice & the weather was perfect. I ended up winning the women's race (18th overall) with a time of 3:00.54. It was fun to win but bittersweet because I was really hoping to run under three hours. I really think that I've got that kind of time in me, & I'm already anxious to plan out my training for the next year +. The course was challenging, with quite a few large hills, so that definitely took a lot out of me. My calves are actually still sore!

At Maine, the half marathon & marathon start at the same time, and the half marathoners turn around between mile 6 & 7. I felt that I was in shape enough to run in the low-2:50's, and I thought that if ~6:25 pace felt comfortable, I would hold it as long as I could. I ended up running with the two women half marathon leaders for the first half of their race. They were hoping to finish in about 1:25 for the half, which fit well with my goals too. I also wanted to take advantage of the opportunity to run with others during the race because I didn’t know how long that would be possible. The pace felt great, & it was awesome to have women to work with.

I went through the half in 1:26.xx, feeling pretty good. But the second half of the race was tough. Although there wasn’t one particular point where I started feeling terrible, I was definitely getting tired by about mile 18.

I’m motivated to run a better time, so I’m keeping my mind open to a faster course with more participants within the next year. With this past training cycle being the hardest by far that I’ve trained for this kind of distance, I think that I’ve learned quite a bit, and I think that this experience will help me improve & know what to expect physically & mentally in the future.

Again, congrats to those who have competed recently, & good luck to those who have upcoming races!

middle.professor wrote:

In addition to 600 ml of pre-race sports drink, the summary of the table for

7 minute pace:

1. Gel/water at miles 6, 12, 18 (anything after is not digested/absorbed in time to help)

2. sports drink at 4, 9, 15, 21, 24, 25 miles

3. water everywhere else

6 minute pace

1. gel/water at 8, 14, 21 miles

2. sport drink at 4, 6, 11, 17, 24, 25 miles

3. water everywhere else

5 minute pace

1. gel/water at 8, 15, 21 miles

2. sport drink at 4, 11, 12, 18, 23, 25 miles

3. water everywhere else

The schedule is based on trying to balance intake and stomach emptying rates as well as not ingesting too concentrated solutions (since that will increase dehydration) and acknowledges that this intake schedule is still insufficient glucose over the last 10K.

That doesn’t seen right. Why would someone running 7min/mile not take a gel after 18 miles but people running faster take something at 21?? The faster runners are obviously going to out there less time so it would be of even less benefit to them?

So congrats to everyone gutting it out and doing hat they had to at Chicago. After my somewhat disappointing race last weekend I got some interesting insight that might help.

Speaking to a former olympian and coach to many... he said that at the level that we are running (at our limits) roughly 1 in 4 marathons go to plan. For the other 3, something (weather, training, injury, etc) unscheduled happens to foil the goal.

So while unscientific, it is interesting to hear.

the FARM wrote:

Speaking to a former olympian and coach to many... he said that at the level that we are running (at our limits) roughly 1 in 4 marathons go to plan. For the other 3, something (weather, training, injury, etc) unscheduled happens to foil the goal.

That's interesting and holds pretty true for me. Of my first 4, only 1 went to plan! 1st shot to injury, 2nd & 3rd to weather. 4th - perfect! 5th - very sick 3 days before race. 6th - in 4 days and looking good!

Hey everyone - so it was an epic fail of a trip for me. after dropping out of my marathon, I ended up missing my flight back and had to wait in the airport of 7 hours. went straight to the bar.

i have had a little time to reflect on my marathon and i think i have some reason for my failure.

1) i peaked too early. i don't want to sound like ryan hall, but my longer workouts were getting worse, not better. This was my first training cycle running 90+ miles consistantly. I think i started doing that type of mileage too early. As i was coming down, guys like 3TM and Awkward Turtle were just starting to get up there.

2) i didn't train in my racing shoes NEARLY ENOUGH! monday morning, my training partner came back to the hotel room after breakfast and immediately asked me what i wore in my PR marathon. answer: Asics DS trainers. what i wear yesterday? Mizuno Musha racing flat. what did I do all my long runs in? Asics DS trainer or the Launch (both light weight trainers). He was trying to figure out why my quads blew up so bad when we did virtually all the same training. well, he wore his racing flats for 4/5 20milers and ALL of our tempo and speedwork.

3) i didn't run fast enough on my Long Runs. I did two 20 milers, one 22 miler, and two 24 milers. every single one of those were long slow distance. Maybe 1 of the 22 miler did i slightly pick of the pace the last 3 miles. but there is a good reason for that... training in thru the summer heat of FL!

4) took it too seriously??? sometimes i run better when i don't change my lifestyle too drastically.

pablo - thanks for your words. i am pretty beat up mentally about it, but i'll get over it. using humor (making fun of myself) as a coping mechanism.

lady walks into the elevator at my hotel.

me: what floor?...

her: 17 pls.

me: is that suppose to be a joke? too soon!

her: ??

me: that's what mile i dropped out at today

(awkward silence)

haha. in all seriousness i know i am fit as well but the sound of another marathon attempt in a couple months sounds awful right now. but i've run jacksonville twice and those are my 2 best marathons. i'm taking this week OFF and most of next week off as well then easing back into it. not going to make any real goals until i start feeling better. my friends in jacksonville are gunna sit down in a couple weeks and right a training plan for some fast track 5ks in the spring. jump in some collegiate races unnattached. i like the sounds of that better. haha, we will see.

also, yea my training partner blew up as well. but, unlike me he was able to hold it together to salvage a decent time (2:41:45, his C goal was 2:36). his wife was at mile 17 (where i dropped out), he said if she had been at 20 he would of dropped as well. it was a rough day for 13 of 15 guys we had there. the 2 that did well??? have run 20+ marathons. EXPERIENCE PAYS.

mrb - you have my ultimate respect for sticking it out. reading your race report is the way i imagined my race would have gone had i finished. Like you, my first marathon really wasn't too tough (granted, I ran much slower than you). my second marathon ended in a death march much like Chicago for you. That is exactly why I dropped out. I've experienced the death march, the medical tent, etc etc before and it just wasn't worth it to go thru that again in order run a 3:05+. ... I just can not make this a habit!

Awkward Turtle - complete agree with your comment about going for it. I didn't run miles and miles and miles in the FL summer heat to not go for it. WE WENT FOR IT!

3TM - Again, excellent race... wish I could have gone the distance with you! I'm actually kind of glad you didn't break 2:40 so that you will still be around here loggin miles and giving us encouragement. Recover well.

This was my first time posting on here and I throughly enjoyed it. I will be continue reading and posting. But unsure if it will actually be marathon training...

That's possible. You're not some beginning runner that needs an 18 or 24 week plan to get ready for a marathon. You've got a base mileage from years and years of running (whether it's high mileage or not). You probably only need 8-10 weeks of marathon specific stuff...preceded by base mileage (just lots and lots of easy running, no workouts). But not to worry, the high mileage you did this cycle WILL show up the next go-around.

This may just be a coincidence. All I did to "prep" my marathon flats (Adidas Adios) were race my half marathon in them, and a couple of workouts...that's it. You should know how your feet are going to react to the shoes you wear on race day, and that doesn't take four 20-milers to do it.

Bingo! Doing long, slow, easy runs for pure mileage is perfectly fine for base mileage. But when you get within 6-8 weeks of the marathon, I think it's important to throw a workout in a long run....preferably a MP type workout. This gets your body used to running MP when you're already tired from 100+ mile weeks and an 1.5 of running before the workout even starts.

Yeah, this goes back to the whole argument of how someone handles stress. No doubt about it, the marathon (and the required training) is stressful. You need to find a balance of getting in the work, but not becoming a hermit by taking it too seriously. Take pressure off yourself leading up to the race, it's supposed to be fun! I said in my race report that Twin Cities was the first marathon I went into feeling totally confident and relaxed...I think that helps a ton during the race. Although part of that comes with experience and knowledge, and you have both.

All that said, I think I'm taking your route as well. I've decided not to run a spring marathon. I'll still post here, but I'm gonna take the winter and spring to focus on some shorter races.

BTW, I'm thinking about running a race near you in January...Matanzas 5k? I've heard great things about the race, and I'd love to hop in a fast 5k when I'm in shape. If you're thinking about doing that one, let me know...because if I do it, I'll probably stay in Jax Beach the day before and drive down to the race the morning of.

Yes, the time as come to change my handle. Unbelievable that I have run 3 marathons in 11 months when before 2009, at 31 years old, I had raced IN TOTAL 3 10ks (2 cross, 1 road) in my life. Crazy.

Nole, I agree with everything Pablo said. When we get to about 6-8 weeks before tapering, I had all my guys stop doing easy long runs. Working, running, and living makes it too hard to get 2 quality days and a long run, which is a quality day in and of itself. Instead, I built our 2nd workout into the long run. Workout/long runs that we did are as follows:

- 4 up, 13 at MP, 4 down... 21 mile day

- 4 up, 5at MP, 3at 1/2MP, 1 at 10k pace, 4 down... 17-18 mile day

- 4 up, 15 at MP, 4 down... 23 mile day (I cut it short and did 21)

- 4 up, 10x1000 with 1000 rest, 4 down... 20 mile day

- 4 up, 10x800 with 800 rest (at MP-15 sec and MP+15 sec) 4 down... 18 mile day

- 19 with last 3 at goal MP- 10 seconds

- Raced a 20k- 17 mile day

I like wearing marathon flats on workouts... I doubt its why your quads cramped, honestly. That was due to dehydration and the effects of running fast :) But having said that, I think its generally good practice to workout what you will race in.

I am flip flopping on my spring plans. Right now my plan is to focus on speed through Jan, but may consider doing a short Feb/Mar marathon cycle for London. Will probably sign up as an option (and not tell my wife), and try and get fast still in Nov, Dec and Jan while running 70-90 mile weeks, and then if I feel good, transition to marathon work.

We'll see though. I literally will not make the call until February after I see how I respond to V02max work speed.

NoleRunner24--

A similar thing (but slower -- I was shooting for low 2:50s) happened to me at Chicago in 2009. I think I had the flu, because MP was incredibly difficult after the first few miles. I started coughing around 10k, and crapping blood around 10M. I stopped running hard around 11M, and dropped at 18M when I saw my family. I figured that recovery time would be a week instead of three if I did that. I was right -- after an abbreviated training cycle, I went 2:58 in a mediocre race in December.

You should think about something like that.

Also, my training update:

Been doing 50 mpw (+/- 5) pretty consistently for about six weeks. One tempo (now at 7-8 miles at HM pace at altitude), one set of intervals (400s @ mile pace or 800s at 5k pace), and one longer/slower tempo (usually 13-14 at about 5-10 seconds slower than MP at altitude [so a little harder than MP effort]) every week. Raced a 5k last weekend. Slooooow 19:15 (barely faster than sea level HM pace), but I didn't feel great. Aside from that, the workouts are progressing OK. A little faster each time.

We're going to Buffalo/Toronto next weekend, and I'll do a sea level 10k. I'll start the build-up for a January HM in mid November; I'm shooting for 1:22 or so. Then it's Boston in April.

pablo - thanks again. I think you are right. biggest factor was not running my long runs fast enough. everything else probably didn't help, but wasn't the deciding factor.

Matanza's 5k is legit man! $$ brings fast runners. on a good year 15:40 will barely break the top 5. low 15s to finish in the $... I live in Jax Beach. You are more than welcome to crash at my place. Sounds like you already have a place to stay tho. As of right now, I am doing it.

4TM - I remember reading your posts with these workouts and thinking how crazy it was you doing track workouts in the middle of long runs. Make sense now and seeing it in order. Dude, just coach me too.

Denver Runner - I wasn't sick so MP didn't feel hard at all until maybe 12. Even then it was all that bad. But 14-17 was an absolute blow up... add 20+ seconds per mile, each mile. But, you my hometown marathon in December is definitely a thought. I won't decide anything until I start running again tho...

BEST OF LUCK TO EVERYONE WHO HASN'T RUN YET

Haha... if you're serious, I would definitely coach you. Coaching is definitely the thing I am most passionate about.

Keep in mind, all those workouts are on the roads. I rarely hit the track when training for a marathon (maybe early in base phase when I do some 200s or something like that). Generally, I want to mimic the terrain of what I will be racing on.

Also, the 20k race was actually before the 10x1k at MP with 1k recovery and after the 15 at MP (when I say MP, I mean goal MP)...

Denver Runner - Good to see you back again! I still think you're due for a faster marathon, the workouts you were putting up and such aims for a high 2:40's...you just need to work on that endurance. Hope you'll stick around for the Boston buildup.4TM - Awesome to see you change the handle! I remember the days of 1stTimeMarathoner...it wasn't even that long ago, but you've gained a ton of knowledge in 3 marathons, and it certainly shows. Those long runs you posted look awesome, I'm seriously gonna save those and keep them in mind for my next marathon...I'm always looking for different workouts to change up the monotony.By the way, I had to quote this one...

4TM wrote:

I am flip flopping on my spring plans. Right now my plan is to focus on speed through Jan, but may consider doing a short Feb/Mar marathon cycle for London. Will probably sign up as an option (and not tell my wife)

Though I'm not qualified to know anything about marriage, I don't see any way where that wouldn't come back to slap you in the face...maybe literally.

Isn't London a NYC type marathon, where they have a lottery system? Do they have a "guaranteed entry" time standard as well?

BTW, somebody wanna volunteer to start the thread up next week? I'm literally about to drive across the country. I fly out to Oregon this afternoon, and I start my trek back to Florida on Saturday. I likely won't be able to check back in until next Wednesday.

4TM - How are you going to get into London? I thought international entry was closed a long time ago. Or do you have an extra-special secret way to get in. One year I'll run London (when its not the day before Boston).

Since I've followed Pfitz, I've always done my long runs in two ways. 1. Progressive - slow to fast. Where I'll warm-up the first 2-3 miles with 8+ min miles. Then gradually get down into the 7:40's, then 7:30's, 7:10's. Then usually the last mile or so I'd run a 6:50, 6:40. Not quite MP but fast.

Then he has the long runs with MP in them. During cold months I can do them. Something like 20 with 8-12 @ MP. Usually at the end or towards the end of the run. This past summer I was able to do ZERO of these runs due to conditions. This is one of the reasons why I was surprised to actually run 2:53, I didn't hit a single MP run.

For Boston, I'm going to switch it up a bit and do some of those Canova workouts that have been posted here. Already have laid out the plan. Starts on December 27th. I need to get comfortable running at 6:20/mile pace for that race.

Good to see you back again! I still think you're due for a faster marathon, the workouts you were putting up and such aims for a high 2:40's...you just need to work on that endurance. Hope you'll stick around for the Boston buildup.

The only problem with this is that five (almost six) month old twins means that I'm up a bunch in the night, which means it is soooooooo difficult to get up early to run, which means I'm relegated to the lunch hour several days a week. Which means that I'm doing what I can in about 50 minutes. Not great for building strength.

One thing I'm trying to do (or will try to do) is turn about every other long run into a long tempo -- so cut the mileage from (say) 22 to 18, but do the 18 at as close to MP as I can get. Saves time and builds speed. Then the alternating long runs are slower and longer. At least that's the plan.

(As far as London goes, my understanding is that you have to sign up through a "tour" company.)

Another, Pablo,

Yeah, I think I can probably get into London through a contact. The whole wife thing won't lead to too much trouble. I think she would rather not go through the roller coaster of me saying I'm going to do it, not going to do it, going to do it, etc, that I'll be going through. Every day that goes by I am more confident in doing it, but we'll see. I think I can nail 2:36-7 this spring if things go my way. We'll see though.

Hey Nole,

Regarding your peaking at the wrong time, this is a problem I have ALWAYS had until this cycle. In fact, it was so hard not packing on the miles too soon. I really tested my patience at times. Once I started hitting the miles, I was really questioning whether I was doing too much too late. I can 100% tell you that it worked perfectly for me.

Never in my life has 6:05 pace felt so, so easy. I even had to hold back a lot in Chicago because I wanted to go faster. Sure, I ended up sucking wind the last few miles, but I honestly think that would have happened if I would have gone slower and held back.

Bottom line, I think it's important to peak 3-4 weeks out of your total mileage. I think the only thing I will do different next time is do an 18-week schedule vs a 14-week schedule. I think I will want to spend 5-6 weeks over 100 next time. The mileage didn't start to truly feel comfortable and easy until the last 2 weeks of training. I think extending the training an extra few weeks will probably help me get in a few longer workouts because my legs were feeling better and better.

Again, though, I could be totally wrong since I crashed and burned like a nerdy high schooler trying to pick up a cheerleader! :)

I definitely concur with the recommendations that have been made above.

From my personal experience, I seem to get the biggest benefit from hard long runs. When preparing for Detroit I did not do many structured workouts, but in the 20wk buildup I got in eight +20mi runs; most of which I treated as progression runs finishing at MP pace for the last 3-5mi (ie. Pfitz long runs).

Additionally, I've had success peaking my mileage 3-4 weeks out from the race. I like to treat it as a lopsided pyramid, where I gradually build the mileage up until 3-4wks out and then quickly drop it down. I also like to vary my weekly mileage so that I don't get stale and make sure I absorb the training. For instance, I will spike the mileage one week, then go back down, then spike it a bit higher (ie. 65,65,90,70,75,70,100).

I also find it most effective to really hit the shorter, faster stuff only in the last 6 weeks (except for strides which I try to do throughout). I have found that my body responds very quickly and positively to anaerobic work but that the effects of these types of workouts quickly level off after a month of so. My best races in college were always early in the indoor track season because I would be getting in solid base mileage (80-90mpw) during winter break and then would return back to school and start hitting the track 2-3 times a week. Every season I would set a new 3k-5k pr a couple weeks in and then my results would level off. This is a highly personal observation but I figured it was worth noting considering Nolerunners recent experience.

Finally, as has been noted by 4TM above, I purposely avoid the track in my marathon preparation. Going into Chicago I only did workouts on the road and I think this greatly helped me to get an accurate assessment of my marathon fitness and also to regularly simulate the race both mentally and physically. If I could go back and change one thing about my preparation for Detroit, I would move all the tempos and long interval workouts I did on the track over to the roads. I find that the track makes me soft and mentally weak as it is the perfect surface, I never have to break my rhythm and I can check my pace every 200m.

Sorry for rambling on! Hopefully there is something informative in the babble above.