2:30-35 Marathon Indicator Training/Workouts

making stuff up wrote:

go francie wrote:

Is this the REAL Francie Larrieu-Smith?!

Based on the advice given I'd say definitely not.

Nope, not Francie L-S. But if it's any consolation, I've run significantly faster than she did. [editor's note- I am a man].

Francis L wrote:

Nope, not Francie L-S. But if it's any consolation, I've run significantly faster than she did. [editor's note- I am a man].

So you've run sub 2:16, with two 10 miles a week at 5:10 pace, and a 22 mile run once a week with the last 12 miles at 5:10 pace. I'm calling BS or else you're a very stupid runner.

What is your running history is my first question. Have you been running for years? or are you a late bloomer? How old are you? Mid 20's or mid 30's or older?

Based on your workouts it sounds as if a 2:37 should not be an issue for you. Have you been running in a group or by yourself? If in a group, then I'd say a 2:37 would be all you can expect, but if running these workouts by yourself, you have a decent shot at sub 2:35. Also what marathon are you doing? A large one where there will be plenty of similar paced people near you or a small one where most of the race you'll be by yourself?

If you're in a big race and have other 2:30-2:35 people around you, you have a good chance of hanging in there through 23 miles and then it is how much you want to hurt that last 5K.

Don't go out too slow. You start out at slower than 6:10 miles and you will not be in contact with the people that will pull you through a 2:34 race. Go out with that group and lock yourself into a pace. You will feel a second wind at 13-15 miles - don't speed up - stay locked into a 5:50-6:00 pace.

Shoot for sub 58 at 10 miles and sub 1:57 at 20. That should get you a 2:35.

Your mileage and training could be what YOU need. Don't get swayed by a lot of these other posters who think you have no chance. Our bodies respond differently. Stay positive and if you believe you can run a sub 2:35, then you increase your chance 100 fold.

Good Luck.

I ran my first marathon six months ago in a large race. My mileage and workouts were very similar. 2:32:07. Ran in HS and College and three years removed from graduating when I ran this.

Run smart - you've got a sub 2:35 in you!

o wrote:

Francis L wrote:

Nope, not Francie L-S. But if it's any consolation, I've run significantly faster than she did. [editor's note- I am a man].

So you've run sub 2:16, with two 10 miles a week at 5:10 pace, and a 22 mile run once a week with the last 12 miles at 5:10 pace. I'm calling BS or else you're a very stupid runner.

What does one thing have to do with the other? The OP asked what can do during his final month of training to try and cram for his marathon. Based on what he said he has done so far, and taking into consideration his very limited time window, I gave him my thoughts on what might give him the most bang for his buck over the next few weeks. Why you would extrapolate that and apply it very generally to my own training and race times is beyond me.

And why exactly would I have to run sub 2:16 to have run significantly faster than Francie L-S? You knuckleheads blow me away with your inability to follow along and make coherent arguments.

Believe what you want about my times- it makes no difference to me. I stand by my recommendation for the OP, as well as my objective prediction for his time (which I based solely on his training).

Along those lines, I don't quite understand the mentality of posters chiming in and saying "I did such and such with similar training, so you should be able to..." By that completely anecdotal rationale, if Alan Webb can run 3:36 off of a month of speedwork, then we should all be able to do the same off of similar training. I could line up 10 different people, have them do the same training, and come out with 10 vastly different race times. I based my time prediction of 2:37-2:40 off of the fact that the OP has done a few tempo runs of 8-10 miles at somewhere between 5:40-6 min mile pace. With one long run. If you think that the OP's stated training reasonably translates into a sub 2:35 without having any more knowledge of the OP's background or talent, then you are high on something. What he ran for a half marathon a year ago (and even the recent 8k, to a lesser extent) means very, very little when predicting his fitness for a marathon in one month.

At any rate, I'm done posting on this thread. Good luck to the OP, and let us know how it goes.

"-Beginning of September began doing 1-2 "tempo" runs per week of 8-10 miles somewhere between 5:40-6:00 pace"

This tells me you have the ability to run 2:30-35.

"-Mid-August realized how much I was hating running over the summer and cut back to running only 6 days per week; mileage has stayed between 55-65 mpw since"

This tells me you lack the desire to run 2:30-35.

I've run 2:32:45....and between that and 2:38 three or 4 times. I've also crashed and burned a few times going 2:45-52. The key different isn't the 8-10milers at 5:40-6:00 pace...I could always do that. The key difference is how those 8-10milers felt. How they felt was in direct relation to my last 6mo of training.

I will predict your race....

5:40-6:00 pace until half-way. At half-way you will be mildy uncomfortable...this is not a good thing. By 15-18 miles you will feel very uncomfortable and the lack of consistent training will come to haunt you. You'll slow to 6:00-6:30. From 18-26.2 you will think about dropping out a number of times. At some point you will 'call it in' and stroll your way to the finish at 6:30-7:00 pace...maybe...highly likely you'll hit a few 8:00 miles in there, maybe walk a bit to 'reset'.

If you can do a 20miler with the first 10 easy and the last 10 at 5:40-50 then you likely will be able to hit it come race day. But you are a month out with little time left for training.

I say just mark this up as the experience of the race. Start at 7:00 pace and progressively try to drop it from there.

Alan

Francis L = Runningart2004

Additionally....

Consistancy matters in the marathon moreso than most races.

The OP's lack of consistancy and overall mileage over the last 6mo will lead to an unhappy last 10 miles...:) The marathon is just a different sort of beast in that hitting times in training doesn't exactly compute to a predictable marathon time because marathon effort is very easy....for about 15-18 miles. So you can go out and have a million 10 mile tempos at 5:40-6:00 and it doesn't really say anything without also knowing how it actually felt, how hard was it? After about 15-18 miles the consistancy in training and total overall mileage (last 6mo, last 12mo, 3 years, 6 years, etc) starts to kick in.

Getting to 18 miles and realizing you still have 8+ more miles to go can either be exciting...or demoralizing. During my best marathons I was always able to drop the pace starting around mile 18 before slightly slowing toward the finish. In my worst marathons in was a steady slowdown from about 15-18 to the finish.

Alan

Alan how many 20+ mile runs did you have over the 4 month period of training leading up to you 2:32+ marathon? What is your idea on tapering?

I think that if you have a average weekly long run of 20 miles per week (sometimes 26+ is needed) over 4 months prior to the event you will be well prepared.

Most of the crowd here reads & believe too much of what is written by the "experts" thus limiting their performance.

you can't cross a sea by merely staring into the sea

-R. Tagore

don't think; feel

-B. Lee

as i had suspected wrote:

Francis L = Runningart2004

Wrong-oh, amigo. And while I often times do not agree with mr. Art2004, he certainly makes more sense than 99% of the jabronis on letsrun.

Ok, now I'm done with this thread.

OP- assuming you weren't a troll, you had better bump this thread after your race and let us know what (if any) training adjustments you made, and what time you hit in the race.

I agree with much of what you are saying. And I will add that for a 2:30-2:35 marathoner, 8-10 miles at 5:40-6:00 isn't really tempo pace. If he is treating those as tempo runs, he certainly will be in serious trouble between 16 and 19 miles. If he runs evenly, I predict 2:44. If he runs for 2:35, then I predict 2:49, with a horrible final 10k.

Wow, wasn't expecting all the replies back. To answer a few of the questions I remember back:

-Do all of my running/tempo/etc on my own after sitting at a desk for 9 hrs/day.

-My tempo runs are all generally fairly easy; given, I'm working and I don't have a whole left in the tank, but I finish strong and not feeling like the last two miles were a struggle

-Always negative split my tempo runs and actually try to finish with my last mile a little slower than some of the middle miles to not "overdo it"

-6:00 pace tempos are generally things where I had no intentions of going below 6:30 pace that day but about halfway through the run I realize my legs are moving pretty quick and I had been doing 5:50s for a little bit

-Was hating running because I was struggling to finish runs this summer. Nothing felt good and I could barely run 12 mile "long runs" when long runs are normally my favorite thing to do. Also had a really bad stomach thing that was happening where I'd basically have a pain like I was being constantly kicked in the scrotum that would last all night and I would even sometimes have waking up the next morning. It's not fun training on your own when nothing is going right and everything hurts.

I'm definitely taking a lot of this into consideration with my training for this race, and moreso in preparation for future races. This is very experimental and new to me so wasn't sure if I could throw in some sort of workouts a month out and hope it would sharpen me up enough in time. At this point I feel a lot of the suggestions are very noteworthy, but would simply require entirely too much deviation this late in the game.

Racing advice is very helpful. Unless my training flops in the next three weeks I think I'll plan to go out around 5:55-6:00 and try to settle into a 6:00 rhythmn the first 18, then kind of let whatever explodes (for good or bad) happen the rest.

Unfortunately however the past couple days have been rough. Felt horrible for my tempo run last night, still did 9 at 5:38 pace but nothing felt good and my legs felt like they were just weights. Went out for a 16 miler today similar to what someone posted in here and I again just had heavy legs from the beginning. Breathing was controlled and fine but my arms and legs just felt like they weren't getting enough oxygen and I cut the run down to only 8 at a coasting pace. Disappointing to have this occur so soon to the race when I thought I was over my crappy summer running phase finally.

unsure wrote:

Unfortunately however the past couple days have been rough. Felt horrible for my tempo run last night, still did 9 at 5:38 pace but nothing felt good and my legs felt like they were just weights. Went out for a 16 miler today similar to what someone posted in here and I again just had heavy legs from the beginning.

You're running way too hard.

Two fast days a week is plenty when training for a marathon, and one fast day is better than three. Use the other days for recovery and building your base, with moderately easy steady running but not hard.

You want to get stronger for the 26 miles, not wear yourself out. There's no point to running hard for two days in a row. One good day is better than two where you're trashed.

I'd take at least 4 to 6 days of very easy distance, keeping your miles up but not running hard, making sure you're recovering well, then have a good day right around marathon pace. One of my favorites has been running 13 a few seconds slower than MP in the morning, like when starting the race, then a few hours later doing a 4 mile like you're running the last 4 miles of the marathon and charging into the finish.

It is always better to start out a little slower than you're aiming for, and then you can keep getting faster through the finish.

intuition wrote:

Alan how many 20+ mile runs did you have over the 4 month period of training leading up to you 2:32+ marathon? What is your idea on tapering?

I think that if you have a average weekly long run of 20 miles per week (sometimes 26+ is needed) over 4 months prior to the event you will be well prepared.

Most of the crowd here reads & believe too much of what is written by the "experts" thus limiting their performance.

you can't cross a sea by merely staring into the sea

-R. Tagore

don't think; feel

-B. Lee

Think outside of a 4 month magic window. I had two months a year of 'down time', one month following a fall race and one following a spring race. Beyond that I had a weekly 18+ long run. It started at 18mi and went up to 22 with a couple attempts at 24-26mi. So I don't think there is anything magical with 20 mile runs as I counted anything 2 hours or longer as a good long run. So I would guess 40+ weeks of the year I had a long run of at least 2 hours.

It got to the point where I could, and did at times, run TWO runs of at least 2 hours a week. An 18miler on Wednesday and the 22-26miler on Sunday. But that wasn't the norm and I would never run anything fast if I was doing that. My Sunday long run was almost always finished at 6:00 or better.

I did 2 other workouts. One was typically fast (your usual track stuff, ladders, miles, etc). The other was some sort of tempo type workout. I had a 2.4mi hilly loop that I loved to do tempos on. I'd run a loop, rest 5 min, then repeat 2-3 times. I'd also do progressively faster runs or steady tempos on that loop. I would also do extended tempos of 8-12mi along the river on a paved measured course. It would either be shorter and faster or longer and slower or progressively faster.

Interestingly, when I ran my PR I didn't do anything faster than 5:00 pace until two weeks out. Instead I did 2-3mi balls out runs basically around 10k pace to start then try to sprint the last mile. I also sandwhiched my tempos. So, I would do a hard 3-4 miler (5:20 pace) on Wednesday and a slower 6-9 miler on Thursday(5:45-6:00). Then Saturday a balls out 2-3miler. Sandwhiching like that didn't happen all the time but maybe for a stretch of 3-4 weeks.

I ran normally until about 10 days out. Two weeks out would usually be my last real long run. 10 days out my last real workout. Then locked myself in a closet until the race. 6-8 miles/day until a week out then 3-5 miles/day until the race. Every couple of days during the last week I would do 1-2miles at marathon pace plus a few quick strides.

Alan

Another thing along with running as hard as you can is to lift a lot of weights and gain 70 pounds. If I had known this at the time I would have run a lot faster and I'm still planning a comeback. My goal is to bench 500 pounds, weigh 250 pounds, and break 5 hours for the marathon.

Francis L wrote:

Another thing along with running as hard as you can is to lift a lot of weights and gain 70 pounds. If I had known this at the time I would have run a lot faster and I'm still planning a comeback. My goal is to bench 500 pounds, weigh 250 pounds, and break 5 hours for the marathon.

Hey nothing wrong with having goals! Don't sell yourself short you could at least break 4 in the 'thon!

Alan

Alan is right!

Thank you Francis!

Ok, to clarify my suggestion with an example:

Jim ran 20 miles in training: the first 10 miles in 64 minutes and the second 10 miles in 54 minutes. If his training has been consistent for several weeks, he'll probably run 2:30 to 2:33 - provided he paces well and has good weather conditions.

I've prescribed this workout on many occassions and marathoners typically run 6-8% slower than their average pace of the second 10 miles of the 20-mile long run. My typical instructions to marathoners: Run the second half of your 20-miler at half-marathon pace/effort - on a course akin to the marathon terrain.

Note: This is a hard workout, and it should be should be done 4 to 6 weeks out from a marathon race, just to ensure recovery is achieved before the marathon race.

Take care,

Tinman