thyroid question

It is not banned. It is a hormone replacement not supplement (I guess the same could be said for testosterone ;)) And if you are not hypothyroid, I do not think it will help you. W/too much I feel rapid heart rate, anxious feelings, and just downright whacky.

There is danger taking it when you dont need it as per label warnings. In fact, it will likely hinder performance. Being hyperthyroid negatively affects performance as well.

Bob Kennedy Joel Lemay are two runners I have heard take synthroid for hypo. Kennedy made a big jump in his 5k (I think)after his hypothyroidism was addressed.

I will consider again talking to my dr about trying to get TSH to 2 or under. The link below gives some good medical opinions on where tsh levels should be.

the hardest part about treating hypothyroidism is that too much is just as bad as too little.

if you take thyroid supplements and you don't need them, it will make you hypERthyroid...which, i think, would be a worse condition.

Thanks for extra info.As it happens I could not get thru the link.

As you correctly say "so is testo".I am not saying that people take the drugs to improve performance,nor am I saying that performance may increase(above what is normal for that athlete).

I am saying; how sure is every one that

1.It is not banned(possibly under an other name)

2.May it be a precurser to an other hormone which is banned.

3.Could it ever be retrospectivly be defined as a related compound and thus one that needed an exemption cert.

In short has anyone ever asked these Q's.

This then could lead me to asking again "what on earth is a related compound"

Thanks again for an intelligent response.

Tests for thyroid are TSH, T3, and T4. If they're out of balance first ask if you've been taking caffeine. If so, eliminate all CAFFEINE, eliminate trans and saturated fats, and include more good fats like omega 3's. Do this for 3 months then get tested again.

Also these tests vary quite a bit within the "normal" range.

The optimal range is within the normal range.

I personally would not go to a doctor, unless you need a scribble for the tests (and feel you want to see what it says). Doctors are sometimes useful for diagnosis, but not for recommendations, unless you prefer being on drugs the rest of your life and having your thyroid and other organs removed, chemo, radiation, etc. Also if you're thinking of meds, first fine the name of the drugs and look up the effects on the internet, as the quacks won't tell you.

Otherwise, make up your own mind as to what to do and what is best for you.

[quote]dunes runner wrote:

Tests for thyroid are TSH, T3, and T4. If they're out of balance first ask if you've been taking caffeine. If so, eliminate all CAFFEINE, eliminate trans and saturated fats, and include more good fats like omega 3's. Do this for 3 months then get tested again.

Can you point me to research in an article in a scientific journal that shows the association between caffeine, trans and sat fats and TSH, T3, and T4?

i've been going through medline for 2 years and have never found one shred of evidence that this is true. enlighten me with facts from a good reaseach article - not something off of a website selling supplements.

Medline = keyword "Med" = "medicine" = drugs.

Do you want to be hooked up on drugs the rest of your life.

If not, start doing your own research, open your mind and stop being so gullible.

I disagree. The optimal range is the level where your symptoms are the least and when you feel best. A small difference would have put my TSH in the "normal range". But I felt no wheres near normal.

I was very skeptical about taking synthroid. But the nature of my thyroid problem, decreased function was and is inevitable.

I believe in wholistic health - eating right and keeping a proper mind - body - spirit balance. But sometimes it's just not enough.

Taking a hormone replacement gave me a physical and mental improvement that I could not have gotten otherwise. You cant imagine the improvement until you experience it.

For me, the effects were powerful, since it lifted many symptoms of depression (that I wasnt acknowledging)that I experienced for a long time.

Is it possible that overactive thyroid in youth leads to IMPROVED running?

Seems that a number of decent runners have Graves Disease. Perhaps the overactive thyroid, albeit dangerous, may have caused greater endurance ability?

Doubt it...I was a sucky runner with hyperthyroidism and got better without it. I had my thyroid destroyed with radioactive iodine and am currently on a 0.2mg daily dosage of levothroid. After reading this thread, I e-mailed a friend who is an endocrinologist and very up to date. This is what his reply was:

There has been considerable debate about adding T3 to T4. An initial paper a few years ago suggested it might be beneficial, but since then several papers have refuted this and shown complications and a high incidence of side effects from T3 supplementation. Soo, we don't recommend

it at this point. There are occassional states where T3 is relatively lower (starvation, severe illness, steroid therapy), but only rarely does this require Cytomel therapy. In general, you more likely to do yourself harm vs. good by taking T3.

Boston dude wrote:

There has been considerable debate about adding T3 to T4. ... several papers have refuted this and shown complications and a high incidence of side effects from T3 supplementation. ... In general, you more likely to do yourself harm vs. good by taking T3.

Well several papers may have refuted taking T3 but there are several posters on this forum that have wrote of improvement from T3 especially when running.

I'm sure these papers did not deal with high endurance athletes. When I don't train hard I feel generally alright, perhaps a little letargic. No doctor would atribute any symtoms to hypothyroid. However, my body falls apart once I try to build up training, with nearly every hypothyroid symptom in the book. Runners don't fit the usual patterns as they endure unusual stress.

fyi...medline is a database of articles that are published in peer reviewed journals. it doesn't necessarily mean that medications were involved in the studies, it just means that the scientific method was used.

i agree that diet is important and can help alot of conditions. but saying that someone with an underactive thyroid can increase the amount of ciruculating t3 the thyroid produces without medication is like telling a type 1 diabetic (maybe not type 2) that you really don't need insulin - just change your diet. it's physiologically not possible.

I've read the papers your doctor is talking about and he's correct about what these papers say. I also think it's probably true that for sedentary people.

But, if you can get a hold of a copy of an exercise phys book by Brooks, Fahey and White (1996), look at the graph on the bottom of page 168. It shows decreasing T3 with increased exercise time. The footnote reads:

"During prolonged submax exercise.....The level of TSH tends to incresase, whereas T4 remains constant but then falls during recovery. The level of T3 falls continuously during exercise. Increased T4 and T3 utilization during exercise is matched by thyroid hormone release during exercise." Modified from Berchtold et al. 1978.

Why i think that higher dosing is needed for people who work out alot is because how can: "Increased T4 and T3 utilization during exercise is matched by thyroid hormone release during exercise." if your thyroid is not working at full speed?

I don't see how you that t3 can go back up?

dunes runner wrote:

Medline = keyword "Med" = "medicine" = drugs.

Do you want to be hooked up on drugs the rest of your life.

If not, start doing your own research, open your mind and stop being so gullible.

He did his own research, dunes, and he didn't find anything to support your statement. So now he's asking you to back up your statements with a little bit more than your word.

--

In other words, noname, no, dunes_runner almost certainly cannot point you to any scientific research that shows an association between caffeine, trans fats, TSH, T3 and T4. It is his pet theory and no amount of facts or logic from you ever present will dissuade him from it.

Remember this is dunes_runner your talking to here, widely acknowledged as the #1 crackpot of LetsRun. Or at least in the top 3 all-time. Now that is an accomplishment.

I find this discussion very informative. We all know what the general hypothyroid symptoms are but I would be interested to hear what symptoms runners suffer from in particular.

For instance, I tend to crash at a certain point in the base period normally when I start to do more intense workouts. I'll be flying along on a 10 miler one day and then the next I can barely get through a 20 min run. I find I have to "Lift" to keep my co-ordination together and my legs get sore and tight in unusual places before the run is even finished. Its hard to keep my head up when running and it feels there is no glycogen in the legs to keep going. Symptoms are more pronounced on hills, which often act as the death blow to runs that I might be feeling somewhat ok on. My head spins and I become foggy and zombie like after the run. Motivation to run or do anything constructive or destructive goes down to zero.

Well, that's a rough description of what I go through. Sound familiar? My background is that I was an all American runner in the late nineties and I am still trying to get healthy to crack a marathon before I'm past my prime. It's a race against the clock but not the one I want to be doing!

thanks for the insight. i'm trying to focus my comments on things i've read in the scientific literature. the problem is that i'm not a chemist, physiologist, or endocrinolgist but there are people on this board who can take what i'm finding and provide some good feedback. thyroid problems in endurance athletes is not a widely studied areas, in fact, i cannot find one article that addresses the issue. it's mentinoned along with anemia as something to test for when performance declines. i suspect there are several reasons:

1. There are not a lot of runners (1% or so of the population)

2. There are not alot of hypothyroid people who are runners

3. There is no money in endurance sports.

= no motivation to research the problem.

I wonder how tightly controlled bob kennedy's docs keep his tsh and t3? there is some motivation to keep him running well because he is world class. It would be great to have a record of all of his numbers and see how they correlate to his times. we could then see the t3 and tsh needed to train at a high level.

avgjane wrote:

I was very skeptical about taking synthroid. But the nature of my thyroid problem, decreased function was and is inevitable.

[quote]Of course. Because you're on the drugs decreased function is enevitable.

I believe in wholistic health - eating right and keeping a proper mind - body - spirit balance. But sometimes it's just not enough.

Oh I didn't realize that drugs were holistic. :)

noname wrote:

fyi...medline is a database of articles that are published in peer reviewed journals.

Doesn't that give you a clue. Geesh.

i agree that diet is important and can help alot of conditions. but saying that someone with an underactive thyroid can increase the amount of ciruculating t3 the thyroid produces without medication is like telling a type 1 diabetic (maybe not type 2) that you really don't need insulin - just change your diet. it's physiologically not possible.

Wrong. The only thing not possible is opening your mind.

Average_Joe wrote:

Remember this is dunes_runner your talking to here, widely acknowledged as the #1 crackpot of LetsRun. Or at least in the top 3 all-time. Now that is an accomplishment.

Yeah I must be the only one not on drugs and with a properly functioning thyroid on this message board.