Marathon Training Thread - Week Ending 2/7

Average_Joe: Do I read that right, but you ran about 29 miles on Sunday? Good job. Was it super windy in Boston yesterday also?

Ok, where to start...

bostonchick - Not sure if you really need a 1:25 half to cement the sub-3 goal. You'll have marathon legs, I'd say you at least need a 1:27 though. I agree with what BostonBound said, relatively speaking, you are probably one of the most competitive folks on here. You are one of the closer ones to the OTQ standard.

Another - Congrats on the 100+ week! I know it's just an arbitrary number but it can make a world of difference in your confidence.

BostonBound - Good news about the knee. Normally, with injuries, I'll cross train until there is no pain...then take a few more days to play it safe, then start back training.

niarun - I think this thread has come and gone by different folks for a while now, but usually in seasons (Fall marathon or Spring marathon). It was actually Cutter who suggested this become a full-time thread after last fall's thread. Now it's become quite popular. BTW, 4lbs of 20 lost...congrats, you're on your way, told you it wouldn't be long before you feel like a runner again.

OSSUR - Some people don't even do a warmup, I like to do enough to get the legs loose, but no more than 1 mile. Usually around 5 mins of light jogging and another 10 mins of stretching works for me.

2TM - Good to hear the hammy held up this week! Was it because you started the strength training routine again? I suppose you're right about being in marathon shape, not 8k shape. But it's still a race, and I want to do well in all of them. It's sometimes disheartening to know you're in good shape and can barely manage an 8k at a pace not far off what you want to average a half marathon.

Pittsburgh Joe - +1 on overtraining and injuries issue. During the week, I do find myself thinking about this thread and how bad it'll look if I dog a run. I've been feeling great lately though, and I want to take advantage of that while I can. Nice week btw, especially that Tuesday and Thursday. 14.5 @ MP?!? I'd say your 2:35 goal may be a little soft. Do you have any races (10k - half marathon) planned in the near future?

CTA - Keep the off days what they are meant to be...a day off. If you want to start adding miles, try doubling an easy 3-4 on a workout day. I've found that a 3-4 mile shakeout will actually help me loosen up, not tire me out.

AKM - Very solid week! I've been there w/ moving...and I can tell you that I certainly didn't get 100+ in when I moved.

Portland - Small steps man, small steps. You're getting back to it, but take it as it comes...don't force anything. You've still got...what...14 weeks till Eugene? Tons of time.

Average_Joe - Wow...nice 5k in the middle of 28.5 mile day?!? Was that planned, or did you just make that decision after the race?

Whew...all that being said, I'll repeat what others have been saying all along, this thread really is a great motivator for us working class folk still trying run our best. I love running, but sometimes it's difficult to stay motivated, and funny as it may seem, simple things like this really help. Keep up the great work guys (and gal). Here's to another happy and healthy week!

AJ: After a week like that, no one could claim you're lazy! I can barely run a 3mi cooldown after a race, let alone 22mi!

AKM: You've got so much going on in your life. With all those changes it's really inspiring to see how you're mananging to keep running and stay fit. I've been of the mindset that I need to get in all my good races before all that stuff happens because it won't happen after that. You're proving me wrong.

CTA: IMO, add it where you feel comfortable. If you're rather still have the day off to recover mentally then add one or two morning runs. As we've discussed before, you'd be amazed at how an easy morning run after a workout speeds recovery. Rolling out of bed tired and sore can be hard and the 5-6mi run is usually painful and slow, but my the afternoon you're 100%.

2TM: Good to hear you had a great long run. Has to feel good to be that comfortable at a strong pace.

P_J: You're starting to make me worry about breaking 2:40 in Boston. I'm not even close to your level. Nice workouts!

Goal - Boston - sub 3:09

Overall a decent week for me...hopefully it sets me up to have a real nice February of training. My main goal is to remain healthy while slowly building mileage. Aiming to peak at 60-65 mpw in mid-March.

M - Off

T - 7 moderate

W - 11 (w/ 8 mile progression...started at 7:10, dropped pace each mile...last mile was 6:18; nice confidence boosting workout for me)

R - 5 easy

F - 6 moderate w/ hills

S - 6 easy

S - 18 easy

Total - 53 miles

Pablo,

Can't tell you what helped the hammy. It was still bothering me, but just was able to manage it better. I would guess that the strengthening work has begun to help, but after a week, I can't believe it made THAT much a difference. I think changing my stride once it started to go helped a lot. Repeating to myself "run tall" and focusing on lifting my knees made a big difference for some reason.

Strangely enough, when it started to go, I got off the pavement and unto some uneven frozen ground. For some reason, whether it was because I was working different muscles, which gave my hip a rest or some other reason, this seemed to prolong things. Then when I dropped the pace, it was OK.

Pittsburgh Joe, I agree with Pablo, man... your goal should probably be 2:30, not 2:35. Here's my reasoning. With about 8 weeks of solid training before taper time, I think one should target 10 miles, in the middle of a long run, at MP right now. I would guess most could go faster, but its all about progression, and that seems like a good place to start. In 2 weeks time, that should be about 12 miles. This should obviously be harder then the 10 was, but still not destroy you. In 4 weeks time, about 14 miles. In 6 weeks time, that should be about 16 miles at MP (I am not doing this one... instead will race a 1/2).

You don't need to do ALL those workouts, but that should be about the progression. If you can run 16 miles, solo, in trainers, at MP, in the middle of a heavy training block, 4 weeks out from the marathon, you can hold that in the race, wearing flats, tapered.

You just ran 14 at 2:32:30 pace about 8 weeks out from taper time. Assuming you progress your fitness rather then just stay static, which I assume you will, think about what you could have done 10 miles at relatively comfortably yesterday... 5:45 pace? Probably. I think TODAY you're probably in 2:32-35 shape. With 8 more weeks of training, should be able to knock off 2-5 minutes and be in the 2:30-3:33 range.

This brings up an interesting question for the group.

What do you think you could run a marathon in this coming weekend if you tapered this week and what is your goal? That obviously equals the fitness improvement you expect before your next marathon.

For me, I think I am in 2:42-2:45 shape right now, and I think I can get down to 2:37-2:40 shape by Boston.

CTA - Its taken me multiple marathon cycles to get the confidence to run these miles.

1. For NYC 2006 (3:06), I did Daniels A-plan 18 weeks (averaged ~50mpw, peak week 78).

2. 2007 was a wash.

3. For BOS 2008 (3:20), did Daniels again (averaged ~45-50 mpw, peak 70, lots of hamstring/calf problems causing low weeks).

4. For CHI 2008 (3:14), did Daniels again (averaged ~55 mpw, peak 75). Heat probable cost me a PR at least or maybe sub-3:10

5. For HOU 2009 (3:01), which was a spur of the moment race. All I did was HADD training. Averaged ~60mpw, peak 75. No real workouts per-se

6. For BOS 2009 (2:58), I did a modified Pfitz 12/70-85 program due to Houston. I also added a rest day every Monday and didn't do doubles. Averaged ~60mpw, peak 74

7. For CHI 2009 (2:55), Was going to try Pfitz 12/85+, but settled on Pfitz 12/70-85. Also did 7 weeks of HADD before starting this (about 55-75mpw). Averaged ~70-75mpw. Peak 83.

8. For BOS 2010 (???). Did HADD training until start of Pfitz 18/85+ (~55mpw). Then currently training right now...

This week calls for 103 for Pfitz, but I won't be anywhere near that. I am going on vacation on Sunday so that's one day off. Plus I'm feeling a little beat up , so I might eliminate some doubles this week. My HR is a couple of beats high the past day or so at the lower paces (but not at the higher paces which is weird). My current running streak is 57 days.

arroyo, I think 2:49 is a stretch goal for me. Hopefully all of these miles will pay off in April. I would be very happy with a 2:52 though.

I'm thinking that after this week, that I might drop the mileage for the final 9 weeks (maybe down to 70-85). I'm getting tired of running all of these miles either on the TM because I don't want to run in the cold, or running all of these miles in the wind and cold. I also don't want to overtrain and am just getting a feeling that if I over do it for too much longer that might happen. I'm assuming the 87mpw I've averaged the past 8 weeks won't go away...

Race: Indy Mini

Goal: sub-1:08

M - 9 miles w/ strength circuit

T - 7 miles @ 6:30 pace

W - 11 miles @ 6:15 pace

R - 8 miles @ 6:50 pace

F - 8 miles @ 7:10 pace (snow, ice, and wind slowed things down a lot today)

Sa - 6 miles @ 7:00 pace

Su - 11 miles @ 6:25 pace

Total: 60 miles

Another pain-free week of training in the books. I'm still not running a whole lot of mileage yet, but I'm feeling good and being consistent. The mileage will come. I haven't done a workout yet since I've started back, but I plan to start that this next week. Hopefully I'll find that I'm not in terrible shape. We'll see. Good work to all you guys who are cranking out the big miles. Nice races too. Keep it up.

I was going to ask you all about the training programs you follow and what seems to work best. For my first marathon, I went onto coolrunning.com and picked up a training program which prescribed the longest run in the cycle of 32 miles (laughable!!!). So I was training for the Big Sur marathon (yes as my first) and signed up for the Hyannis Marathon as a long training run. I ended up BQing and bagging Big Sur and the coolrunning.com training program.

My next marathon I started with Daniels and I got so stressed out because of the 24 week plan (I was traveling and had a hard time getting the runs in correctly, etc). So . . . I ended up working with a coach that some of my friends used. He has been awesome for me and I've stuck with him now for 2, almost 3 marathons. He gives me my program for the week on Mondays based on how the previous week played out. I meet up with him and a group to do speed sessions on Saturday morning and he frequently sets me up for runs with some others for tempos, etc.

So far he has had one from our group OTQ and two others that have run the OTQ time, just not this year. Just like this thread, being out with some of these ladies is really inspiring although a little humiliating at times also!

I've never heard of HADD or Pfitz - need to look into it, but I risk over thinking these plans at times and following what the coach says is much better for me. I've learned that whenever I deviate from his plan, I break or get sick - although I still do stupid stuff at times (like joining CrossFit and injuring myself doing 75 reps of Powercleans for time?!?!).

So how many of you guys run with heart rate monitors (HRM's)? Do you faster runners ever use a HRM? The reason I ask it that sometimes I feel like I'm a slave to the HRM. Obsessing over everything little piece of data. Its a nice tool to determine what you can handle, prevent overtraining, etc. But sometimes it can get a little obsessive and overbearing and you just want to go out and run.... I usually drop wearing it 10-14 days out from a marathon. I'm thinking I might do it a little sooner this time. Simply because I'm just getting sick of wearing the strap all the time. It seems to have gotten more annoying with the increased mileage, dropping a little weight and the drier skin...

Pablo and 2TM:

Guys, I appreciate the feedback. We are definitely on the same page in terms of progression. My ss runs have basically added a mile every two weeks so 14.5mi getting close to the limit of what I should be doing in a training run. Renato talks about working up to 90min or so for the marathon. And my 10 mile ss runs are around 5:45 pace. I was thinking I would start working in the MP in my long runs just as you suggested with some shorter tempo/interval efforts during the week.

The time target is definitely Boston adjusted! I think if I was running Chicago I would be talking about 2:30, but with Boston headwinds and hills I am giving myself some breathing room. (Not to mention, I suck at drinking on the run. Seriously, I stopped at the water tables last year. Will probably stop at a couple of strategic points to get a an few cupfuls down. Will be working on this.) If training continues to go well, I will probably head out in 5:50s and see how it goes. The intention is to not press until around 18mi in the hills. If I feel good through the hills, trust me, I'll gun for low 2:30s.

True, on a good day I think I could roll a 2:35 right now.

I train in Mizuno W riders and I am thinking about getting some Ronins. I have a some lunar racers but I had sore heals/PF for about a month after Boston (and the toe box is just too small).

Brighton 04.18.2010

Scheduled easy week for me due to work and travel.

40 miles.

Back into it next week.

Great stuff out there guys and gals. Keep it up!

Cheers

Andy

Another -- Inspiring stuff, mate; your posts are great. I tinkered with Hadd between marathons last year but got injured by running the 200/200 workout that i found in one of the Hadd threads. I may give Hadd another shot though... Regarding HRM, yes, i always wear it and i record the data in a xls. I now have a scar in the center of my chest from the battery lid (which got deformed and jagged after i changed a battery).... BTW, One of the things i enjoy about this thread is that it is nice to interact wth people who are even more obsessive than i am!

Bostonchick -- You and I are in roughly the same shape. I too am doing a half marathon 6 weeks out from my marathon. But I don't think i am going to run it all-out. I think i will run the first 10 miles at 6:45 pace (goal MP) but not faster. And then push the last 5k at sub-6:30 and finish in 1:26-1:27. That's my current plan but you never know....

My week was not that impressive. I went from 86 miles to 47 last week due to a hamstring minor injury the week before. Now I am reconsidering my goal of 2:30 at the LA Marathon even though I haven't totally given up.

I pulled my hamstring while doing lunges after my long run at the gym a week ago on Sunday. Because of that I had to take time off. So my week went like this:

Monday: 8 miles easy at 6:58 pace. Hamstring was sore afterwards and decided to take the next two days off.

Tuesday: Off, but cross trained on the bike and ellipictical machine.

Wednesday: Same as Tuesday.

Thursday: 8 miles easy at 6:48 pace. The hamstring felt better, but my whole body felt tight and heavy. Probably due to the cross training. Not sure.

Friday: 7 miles at 6:44 pace.

Saturday: 4 miles easy at 6:54 pace.

Sunday: I had already planned this race a month ago and was hopping to be able to run after having the hamstring problem. Warmed up with three miles (7:10 pace), raced half marathon in 1:12:45, cooled down with 4 miles at 7:10 pace. 20 mile total.

I felt better than expected at the race and went out a little too fast. I was planning to run 5:30 pace and went out at 5:22 and 5:24 for the first two miles. My legs got heavy by mile 8 and ran 5:41, 5:40 and 5:43 for miles 9, 10 and 11 (gradually uphill). Last two miles I tried to get back on pace and managed to run 5:36 and 5:33. I don't remember all the mile splits, but they are recorded on my Garmin watch. I'm at work right now.

Hopefully I'll stay healty from now on and get some quality training in the next few weeks. My marathon is coming up in six weeks.

CTA, bostonchick - 22 days before Boston last year I ran a HM in 1:26:54. First 10 miles in 1:06:43 (6:40/mile). Then last 5k in 20:11 (6:29-6:30/mile). I probably ran the first 10 miles a little fast. I went 6:34, 6:34, 6:22 last three miles.

I am doing the same race again this year. I'd like to come through 10 miles this year ~1:04, and try to come back in 19:xx, for a 1:23:xx...

JewOn - Pretty good half considering the hamstring. You definitely have the talent to run sub 2:30. The only problem is that hamstring might show up again around mile 17-18 during LA. You still have a few weeks to get in some good indicator workouts and re-adjust if necessary.

bostonchick - I don't really have a method to my training...just run as many miles as I can safely handle. The workouts I do are from word of mouth, and what seems to have worked in the past. I don't know much in the way of Pfitz, HADD, Daniels, etc....I really just run. Don't know if it's the best way to train, but it's worked so far.

Another - No HRM, No Garmin...just a timex watch. Most of my runs I already know the distance, and if not, I base the run off 7:00 miles. I've never had my max heart rate tested, and the last time I had my resting heart rate testing (physical for XC/track) it was ~48 bpm.

Pittsburgh,

Do you really think Boston is that hard? My feeling is that you can run fast at Boston if you're smart. If you get too much in the groove of cruising the downhills, your quads are going to pay for it later. But if you hold back, and basically run even (or maybe 1-2 min positive split), I think you'll be good.

So if you think you can run 2:30 at a Chicago type course, you can do it at Boston too. The trick will be jogging a 1:14 or 1:15 first half and staying on that pace until the hills.

I know I'm not going out harder then 1:18. I hope it feels silly easy and allows me to run 1:19-20 on the back half.

A buddy of mine got caught up in the fast early sections and couldn't slow himself down. Went through the half in 1:12. Ended up running 2:39:50. Had he gone out in 1:15, I bet he would have run 2:32.

For those who asked, the 28+ mile day is something I do once a year. I take a train out to Lowell, run from the train station to the start of the race (directed by a friend), then run the 5k. Then I run home.

The run home is super slow, on purpose.

I ran out of gas about 14 miles into the run home (20+ miles into the day) so I stopped off, ate some food and then finished.

I don't like doing that many miles in one day but it's good to overload things once in a while. I really don't like doing 1/3 of my mileage on one day.

Pittsburgh May 2

Goal 3:40

I had planned to up the mileage and added a fifth day of running but heavy snowstorm Friday changed plans.

Mon lift

Tues 8mi w/10x100 strides

Weds 4mi

Thur 6mi hills

Fri shovel snow

Sat shovel more snow then 6 miles

Sun 2 hrs/elliptical

(side roads were too bad to run and didn't want to run on the main roads for two hours. traffic wasn't THAT light!) We are supposed to get hit with more snow Tuesday so might be indoors more...)

Good luck and stay healthy!

Goal: Boston Marathon 2:16-2:18

M- 5 miles easy/ 10 miles easy

T- 5 miles/ 10 x 1k rec 90 sec avg 3:00

W- 5 miles easy/ 10 miles easy

T- 3 miles easy/ 10 miles easy

F- 3 miles/ 4 x 2miles rec 3mins 10:10/10:13/10:08/10:06

S- 5 miles easy/ 10 miles easy

S- 20 miles easy long run 6:30 pace

Total: 100+ miles for the week. Looks like everyone's training is going great! Keep up the hard work Everyone.