Could Adams have beaten Oklahoma at D1 Nat's

PACMAN74 wrote:

Daddy Nationals wrote:

Half the Adams team couldn't even meet D1 eligibility standards. So no. Thanks for playing!

I like this answer.

yeah, because Oklahoma State and Oregon are so hard to get into...

wow... wrote:

PACMAN74 wrote:

I like this answer.

yeah, because Oklahoma State and Oregon are so hard to get into...

I think he's referring to the DII having no age, previous affiliation or ex-pro runners clauses in their handbook. DI athletes have slightly more strict rules around being eligible to compete.

I don't know any of the Adams guys' histories so I have no clue if they would be DI eligible, but there are a different set of rules that makes some DII runners ineligible for DI comp.

O I wonder wrote:

P.S. Moron, I know its Oklahoma state. I just dont feel like adding state to it. Chill out.

Cool. I think I'll start telling people that I have a degree from Penn. The whole adding "State" to the end is just a waste of air.

Read a book wrote:

I think he's referring to the DII having no age, previous affiliation or ex-pro runners clauses in their handbook. DI athletes have slightly more strict rules around being eligible to compete.

I don't know any of the Adams guys' histories so I have no clue if they would be DI eligible, but there are a different set of rules that makes some DII runners ineligible for DI comp.

Ex-pro runners clauses - You mean like Rupp? The ncaa clearinghouse checks to make sure that there are no former pro runners in Div I or II. Now go read a book. With that being said, this is a lame thread but it will come up every year, no matter who wins Div II.

I seem to recall that maybe 8-10 years ago the D1 and D2 nats were on the same course on the same day(Kansas?), and that the D2 runners were generally about a minute slower than the D1 runners (ie:10th place in D1 was about a minute faster than 10th place in D2). Perhaps D2 is better now. I still think those teams lack the depth necessary win a championship or even place very highly.

As a former D3 runner, I can tell you D3 can't compete with the best of D1. If you took the top 7 runners in D3 and made them a team, I doubt you could qualify for nationals. Here is the history of how D3 runners did, when they could compete.

1973 Steve Foster, Ashland College did not run

1974 David Moller, Rochester 19th at Indiana Univ. (6M), 30:27

1975 Vin Fleming, Univ. of Lowell XX at Penn State Univ. (6M), time

1976 Dale Kramer, Carleton XX at North Texas State (6M), time

1977 Dale Kramer, Carleton 46th at Washington State Univ. (10k), 30:08.7

1978 Dan Henderson, Wheaton 10th at Univ. of Wisconsin (10k), 29:48.5

1979 Steve Hunt, UMass-Boston 85th at Lehigh Univ. (10k), 30:49.4

1980 Jeff Milliman, North Central 101st at Wichita, KS (10k), 30:54.3

1981 Mark Whalley, Principia 50th at Wichita, KS (10k), 30:21

1982 Nicholas Manciu, St. Thomas did not run

1983 Tony Bluell, North Central did not run

1984 Mark Beeman, Brandeis 60th at Penn State Univ. (10k), 30:55.9

1985 James White, UMass-Dartmouth 61st at Marquette Univ. (10k), 31:07.93

1986 Arnie Schraeder, UWisc-Stevens Point 11th at Univ. of Arizona (10k), 31:14.49

1987 Jukka Tammisuo, St. Lawrence 73rd at Univ. of Virginia (10k), 30:42.55

1988 David Terronez, Augustana 66th at Iowa State Univ. (10k), 30:42

1989 David Terronez, Augustana 56th at US Naval Academy (10k), 31:01.65

1990 Seamus McElligott, Haverford 35th at Tennessee (10k), 30:13

sgh wrote:

You really think that ASC's Top 3 is a better trio than any other team in the nation after OSU? Seriously? Where the hell did you get those numbers? You think they're #1 is a 5th place guy at D1's? That he's better than Ulrey or Mead? That he's looking at McNeill and Derrick's heels?

Oh my lord.

Well, Yes!!! Here is the proof. If you know anything about Adams, you know that Mwei is by far the best cross runner they have, and the Jamboree was by far his worst race.

Medigovich was ASC's third runner most of the year, and finished only 7 seconds behind Chipangama at the Jamboree...beating both Lowe and Kosgie in the process.

Braun was just a few seconds behind those four, and beat the entire W&M team. All of that coupled with a normal race out of Mwei and YES, there are 3 Adams runners in the top 15.

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Charming Charlie wrote:

[quote]O I wonder wrote:

P.S. Moron, I know its Oklahoma state. I just dont feel like adding state to it. Chill out.

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There is a BIG difference bucko.

Well I hope you are intelligent enough to know who I was referring to, considering I mentioned them as the National Champions.

Well if you were intelligent you would have shortened it by typing OkSt, OkState, or OSU...not Oklahoma. Laziness is not a good quality

[quote]Emory Eagle Fan wrote:

I seem to recall that maybe 8-10 years ago the D1 and D2 nats were on the same course on the same day(Kansas?), and that the D2 runners were generally about a minute slower than the D1 runners (ie:10th place in D1 was about a minute faster than 10th place in D2).

Yes, back in 1998 Adams wouldn't have done as well in the DI meet. What does that have to do with 2009? Nor does your argument make much sence anyways. Nobody is going to try and argue that DII is deeper than DI. We all know that DI is much, much deeper.

I wish if nothing else they would have all divisions compete on the same course on the same day. Much like state meets do it.

I also think that Adams is definitely a top 5 team in D1. I am not sure they can beat ok state but with Fernandez 93rd or whatever they might have a shot. It is ignorant to think that they wouldn't qualify or that they would struggle to be a top 10 team. Most years I think that the top 3 in d2 can run with the top 25 in d1.

Emory Eagle Fan wrote:

I seem to recall that maybe 8-10 years ago the D1 and D2 nats were on the same course on the same day(Kansas?), and that the D2 runners were generally about a minute slower than the D1 runners (ie:10th place in D1 was about a minute faster than 10th place in D2).

the truth is that even on the same course these are two different races. You can make some level of comparison, but it's not entirely fair to compare different races. A true comparison should be head to head competition.

With that being said, DII was definitely not as deep that year. Yi Min Wu (the guy who won ) was a good runner, probably about a 2:13 marathoner, but his 5k/10k p.r.s were not sub 14, or sub 29 if I recall correctly (which I may not). This year you had a 13:40 guy in 6th. The depth and upfront firepower in DII has definitely improved since those days.

They already did.....

OSU Cowboy Jamboree - 10/3/2009

Stillwater, OK

Results

Team Scores

=================================================================================

Rank Team Total 1 2 3 4 5 *6 *7 *8 *9

=================================================================================

Results - Men

1 Northern Arizona 52 1 5 13 14 19 38 51

Total Time: 2:00:58.30

Average: 24:11.66

2 William & Mary 59 8 9 10 12 20 25 45

Total Time: 2:01:38.10

Average: 24:19.62

3 Adams State Univ. 69 2 6 17 21 23 24 39

Total Time: 2:01:35.20

Average: 24:19.04

4 Oklahoma State Univ 73 3 4 18 22 26 28 40

Total Time: 2:01:46.70

Average: 24:21.34

5 Western State 126 11 15 31 33 36 53 60

Total Time: 2:03:45.30

Average: 24:45.06

The real truth about the Div I and Div II race in 98' is that the races were run in two completely different weather situations. Div I ran mid morning in what felt like 40-50 degrees. Div II ran in the early afternoon and it was around 60-70 degrees. With that being said, Div I is much deeper than Div II and always will be.

And at least Dave Smith has the balls to race against them.

coach D wrote:

And at least Dave Smith has the balls to race against them.

This is true! Unlike Oregon

Whattttttt wrote:

The real truth about the Div I and Div II race in 98' is that the races were run in two completely different weather situations. Div I ran mid morning in what felt like 40-50 degrees. Div II ran in the early afternoon and it was around 60-70 degrees. With that being said, Div I is much deeper than Div II and always will be.

Exactly. That's why a straight up comparison isn't totally fair. And yeah, I don't think anyone has argued that DI isn't deeper, just that the top DII team(s) would slot somewhere into the top 5-15 in DI.

sorry, didn't mean to make that all bold.

wow... wrote:

PACMAN74 wrote:

I like this answer.

yeah, because Oklahoma State and Oregon are so hard to get into...

So was the supreme talent in Adams State's top 5 offered even a cent in scholarship money from Oregon or Oklahoma State?

kdfjgldfkj wrote:

I wish if nothing else they would have all divisions compete on the same course on the same day. Much like state meets do it.

So you'd like to have teams staying over an hour away because Terre Haute doesn't have enough rooms to accommodate all the D1, D2, D3 teams and their fans? I wish, if nothing else, you'd stop to think before opening your yap again.

Read a book wrote:

wow... wrote:

yeah, because Oklahoma State and Oregon are so hard to get into...

I think he's referring to the DII having no age, previous affiliation or ex-pro runners clauses in their handbook. DI athletes have slightly more strict rules around being eligible to compete.

I don't know any of the Adams guys' histories so I have no clue if they would be DI eligible, but there are a different set of rules that makes some DII runners ineligible for DI comp.

Plus ASC's academics don't meet accreditation standards that D1 schools must meet.