Ritz should run a fall marathon

I will always view Alberto as MR. POTENTIAL when it comes to the marathon coaching. And most people that are his defenders always end up agreeing, with statemens like ...."lets wait and see what happens with (fill in the blank)"

1. Hansons took Desiree Davila from a 2:44 marathoner to 2:27 in less than three years.

2. Mahon has a guy who is an Olympic silver medalist at the marathon. Meb Kaflsometherother. Mahon also has Willard, Dobson, and Rhines.

3. Ritz should not run a marathon in the fall because he would not be ready, much less ready to win. He would have about 6 weeks to prep for NY, and almost no time to prep for Chicago. Berlin is weeks a way. Racing NY takes very specific preparation. You have to be ready for the hills. You also have to be ready for the obligatory sprint down 1st ave and the surges on 5th. Ryan Hall and the East Africans are already months into their prep for this. You just can't change gears that fast from lower mileage track work to hitting the roads for 26.2 in NY. Track speed does not translate directly into marathon success without a significant amount of marathon specific work.

4. World half is perfect for Ritz. Half marathon is raced more like a 10k these days. A few weeks with some longer tempo work and he will be ready.

All great points Precious Roy. Again, Mahon was passed the torch. Not taking anything away from Davila, but 2:27 on a not-so-tough course is good, not great (but, then again, Kara underachieved). Agree on the specific marathon prep, but Ritz will be "halfway" there anyway (incidentally the WC half and Chicago are the same day). If Ritz were to run the 2:07 that he never could under Brad, then that would disarm a lot of adversarial ammunition. But we won't know unless he gives it a shot. Of course, he ain't going to run 2:06-2:07 at NYC, so maybe my original assertion is really moot anyway. But I'm not ready to throw Salazar under the bus yet.

Anyway, you guys can have at it. I would just personally prefer to see Ritz run Chicago for time on October 11 rather than the WC half. He's already done the WCs this year and PRd on the track at 5 and 10. He's probably sick of the marathon though anyway.

With all the intangibles and gray areas and all the problems that can occur at any time in a 26.2 mile race and subsequent build up to the race "lets wait and see what happens with(fill in the blank) could be the mantra of any defender of numerous coaches not just Salazar and not just on the American scene....and every coach is technically Mr. or Mrs. Potential because in theory that is what they are grooming, POTENTIAL,nothing more nothing less....

Even for a guy like Ritz who gets in shape in a hurry, October 11 is a bit short notice for a marathon. He's made it clear in interviews that he and Salazar have avoided marathon type training and that they really would like to preserve some speed for now.

You seem like a decent enough guy, Sagarin, but I don't know why you're pushing what is obviously a bad idea, especially when there's no hurry and the guy clearly does not want to do it.

Sagarin wrote:

Not taking anything away from Davila, but 2:27 on a not-so-tough course is good, not great

9th fastest American on ANY course. You are out of it. You think that Dan Browne was successful in the marathon but not Davila? You obviously have some sort of hard on for the Saladbar.

I'm only pushing it in the sense that Ritz is terribly FIT right now, mere weeks from being in marathon shape ACCORDING to Salazar, and needs a LONG BREAK from the distance PRIOR to 2012. As I said, I'd hate to see him run one next year, in 2011, and then again in 2012, not to mention a London or Boston in there for some cash.

Admittedly, when I started this thread, I thought Chicago was toward the end of October. He probably doesn't have enough time, and he's not going to run one anyway. I just wish he could, that's all.

flotrack blows chunks wrote:

9th fastest American on ANY course. You are out of it. You think that Dan Browne was successful in the marathon but not Davila? You obviously have some sort of hard on for the Saladbar.

You're missing the point. Kara gets criticized for "only" running 2:25 in her DEBUT at New York, which is probably two minutes slow of a flatter, faster course. Then, Davila's 2:27 NON-DEBUT gets "touted." Seems like a disconnect to me.

Lots of roadkill out there for ANY coach, despite the successes.

... and Kara's successful debut came within mere weeks of being sharp and blazing up the track in an Olympic year. Spurious or insightful?

You missed the point. Let me frame it for you.

Some coaches are doing a good job of having their athletes reach their potential in the marathon. Others are not.

If a coach takes sub 28 minute 10k and he runs 2:11 and another coach takes a 29 minute guy to a 2:12. The second coach did a better job. Even though 2:11 is faster than 2:12.

It has to do with taking athletes to their potential.

Saladbar has been a failure by these standards in the marathon. I have read this entire thread and you only gave excuses for why this is the case. You never presented one legitimate marathoner that proves your point. Give an example that proves your point without putting on qualifiers like ....it is a tougher course.....or, it was a debut....or the sun was in my eyes. They all amount to the same thing.

I agree with your premise, but how can you not have "qualifiers" in some cases? I mean, Kara ran NYC and then Boston. It's not like she ran London for "time," where Hall has his PRs. It's not like she ran Chicago where Deena has her PRs. And that IS the point. I think everyone can agree that Ritz has not reached his potential in the marathon as of yet based on his shorter-distance PRs. I'd like to see him get that chance under the new regime, particularly while the "burner is lit." That's it. And I'd like to see him do it in a timeframe that won't compromise his build-up to 2012.

And, besides, your fundamental assumption that track times correlate with marathon times for every athlete, and therefore some coaches are better than others in bringing out potential is flawed. Ask Dick Beardsley what his best 5 and 10ks were. Ask the same of Pete Pfitzinger. Ritz trained LIKE A MARATHONER, and it didn't really help him. So, perhaps he needs to train like a trackster as part of his buildup, just as Kara did when she had her BEST effort, which happened to be her debut.

Ok, you know what, SCRATCH EVERYTHING I SAID. Let's try this from another angle. As I said, Chicago is too soon (I thought it was later when I first opened this can of worms) anyway.

So, me thinks that Ritz SHOULD run the WC half in Birmingham, England. THEN he should, assuming he has created more goodwill and credibility from a good performance there, build up for the London Marathon in the spring of 2010. Heck, he could even run world cross as a sharpener as the "old-timers" used to do. THAT buildup from London this year really seemed to help him on the track. And, it would still give him enough time to recuperate if he didn't run another marathon until the trials in 2011, if he plans on the marathon for the Olympics. That would give him all of 2011 to hone his track speed even more.

Don't give in that easy sag!!! they made you cave bro, you had a good premise going as far as your theory on why you think he should run a fall Marathon, and now you have back tracked to counter point your theory on another thread!!! I agree a fall Marathon would be Ideal, but I don't want Ritz to think Marathon just yet, I think he can and will do some damage at 5 and 10k, but who knows maybe Ritz and Salazar imply they are tired to deflect attention or expectation and race a fall Marathon anyway or how about a January Marathon in flat perfect conditions in Phoenix Arizona???!!???

I don't think I'm caving. I'm re-evaluating, but not based on anything said here. In fact, I think what I'm suggesting is that I'd love to see the "Salazar" approach to the spring marathon, with maybe heavy emphasis on being sharp for world cross and maybe a fast 10k at Mt. Sac (there would need to be rabbits) prior to London, where surely Ritz would get some decent appearance $$$ if he runs well in Birmingham. Then, not only will we get to see a fit Ritz at world cross, but Salazar's "track-ready" theory in action. Frankly, marathon specific training has not led to a fast time thus far (though Ritz himself was largely to blame for that with his 14:39 opening 5k in London this year).

But, if they chose to do the marathon-specific training approach again, with the thought of the heavy base prepping Ritz for some track PRs as it did this year, that would probably be ok. Not optimal from the standpoint of working Ritz's "speed" but still ok.

I think Ritz should focus on the 10k rather than the marathon for at least another year or so.

Shit, Mt. Sac is too close to London next year. Ok, well maybe the Stanford meet. Or maybe just world cross, then another late track season next year, particularly if there's going to be a 10,000 in Belgium in September. So many possibilities.

Yes I'm aware.

That's what i think he SHOULD do, not what he's going to do. Assuming he's healthy, we'll see him at the WC half and at least 1-2 other races before the end of 2009. Then we'll see him indoors, etc.