Vessey 1:57.85!!

Link wrote:

Given that, and compared to Vessey, this guy was, without a doubt, a big-time doper.

His name? Bill Rodgers.

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Proof?

Rodgers wrote:

Link wrote:

Given that, and compared to Vessey, this guy was, without a doubt, a big-time doper.

His name? Bill Rodgers.

.

Proof?

Are you asking for proof that Rodgers did all those things, or that Rodgers was a doper. If the latter, then you missed the entire point of my post: Big improvements at the age of 27 do not imply doping. If Bill Rodgers was taking PEDs in 74-75, or, hell, ever, I'll eat my house - brick by brick.

Rodgers wrote:

Link wrote:

Given that, and compared to Vessey, this guy was, without a doubt, a big-time doper.

His name? Bill Rodgers.

.

Proof?

it's called sarcasm

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Boschenaar wrote:

Women do not convert 400m speed to 800m speed equally either. Take a look at the following 400m vs 800m bests of these gals:

Jarmila Kratochvilova 47.99 1:53.28 (8.650/lap slower)

Jearl Miles-Clark 49.40 1:56.40 (8.800/lap slower)

Ana Quirot 49.61 1:54.44 (7.610/lap slower)

Maria Mutola 51.37 1:55.19 (6.225/lap slower)

Ludmila Formanova 51.84 1:56.56 (6.440/lap slower)

Stephanie Graf 52.69 1:56.64 (5.630/lap slower)

Pam Jelimo 52.78 1:54.01 (4.225/lap slower)

Meridith Valmon 53.25 1:57.04 (5.270/lap slower)

Christine Wachtel 54.36 1:55.32 (3.300/lap slower)

Jolanda Ceplak 54.67 1:55.19 (2.925/lap slower)

Maggie Vessey 53.61 1:57.84 (5.310/lap slower)

Vessey and Pam Jelimo seem not to fit as nicely into the chart. So, really how fast is Maggie in the 400? and how much would you add per lap to her 400m time? I say 52.8 and add 5.50 seconds for a nice 1:56.6

The one with the smallest variation between 400 and 800, Jolanda Ceplak, is just coming off a 2 year ban for testing positive for E.P.O..

The next one on your list with the smallest conversion factor, Wachtel, was a member of a 4x400 bronze medalist team and I sincerely doubt she ran 54+ leg on it.

Meredith Valmon (nee Rainey) ran 51.56 for the 400 while at Harvard, so that time needs adjustment.

Vessey should be able to run sub 52.00 right now or 4:02 for 1500. Obviously, the greater the 1500 speed the less 400 speed is required to hit a specific 800 time.

Has anyone considered the most significant change to Vessey's performance could be coaching, being injury free and an opportunity for consistant training? Greg Brock is probably the best coach that no one has heard about. He has influenced more multiple athletes and coaches than anyone is aware of. For example, He coached John Rembao in high school, who has 24 years of division 1 coaching and coached Armando Siqueiros (Jordan Hasay high school coach)when he was in college. If you look at Vessey's background, she had inconsistant training, prone to injury and is only now fully understanding how to run an 800 meter race.

lee reynolds wrote:

Has anyone considered the most significant change to Vessey's performance could be coaching, being injury free and an opportunity for consistant training? Greg Brock is probably the best coach that no one has heard about. He has influenced more multiple athletes and coaches than anyone is aware of. For example, He coached John Rembao in high school, who has 24 years of division 1 coaching and coached Armando Siqueiros (Jordan Hasay high school coach)when he was in college. If you look at Vessey's background, she had inconsistant training, prone to injury and is only now fully understanding how to run an 800 meter race.

Bingo.

lee reynolds wrote:

Has anyone considered the most significant change to Vessey's performance could be coaching, being injury free and an opportunity for consistant training? Greg Brock is probably the best coach that no one has heard about. He has influenced more multiple athletes and coaches than anyone is aware of. For example, He coached John Rembao in high school, who has 24 years of division 1 coaching and coached Armando Siqueiros (Jordan Hasay high school coach)when he was in college. If you look at Vessey's background, she had inconsistant training, prone to injury and is only now fully understanding how to run an 800 meter race.

That could be true. Speaking as a coach, I hope we count for something! Not only that, some athletes come into athletic maturity later than others. Maybe she's only now coming to realize what is possible for her.

But the point is that Vessey never retired like Bill Rodgers...furthermore Bill was a chain smoker who by his own account was never really dedicated i high school and college. His talent was always there.

The Vessey situation is not comparable. Unfortunately she will be plagued with suspicion for quite some time unless she starts consistently running these times for a couple of years...then maybe it will subside. If she goes back to her 2:02 level then the doubts will only get stronger.

What if Ritz runs a 26:40 on his next 10000 attempt? Do you Vessey believers think that would not be suspicious? Lets be realistic about this.

What's more unbelievable, an approximately 3 second improvement in an 800 or a .33 second improvement in the 100 meters while high stepping and celebrating?

busted s00n wrote:

She will get busted soon.

would you dolts believe a 9+ sec improvement in the mile?

19 sec improvement in the 2 mile / 3k, 30 sec in the 5k?

hohhummer wrote:

But the point is that Vessey never retired like Bill Rodgers...furthermore Bill was a chain smoker who by his own account was never really dedicated i high school and college. His talent was always there.

The Vessey situation is not comparable. Unfortunately she will be plagued with suspicion for quite some time unless she starts consistently running these times for a couple of years...then maybe it will subside. If she goes back to her 2:02 level then the doubts will only get stronger.

It's worse, actually. Rodgers wasn't chain smoking when he was in college nor when he ran the 9:00 two mile. I don't know that he 'chain smoked' at all, but his smoking was done right before he started his comeback. Two years of smoking, or whatever it was, should have left his lungs somewhat less healthy than before, yet he went from 9:00 two mile to 28:00 10k - three times the distance at about the same pace. To use the crude sort of reasoning that is so often on display here, that'd be like Vessey running a 1200 in 2:36 after having been a smoker for two years.

When people of any age train harder, smarter and compete at their best distances they improve on what they did before. Sometimes a lot. My point is that if Vessey is on drugs - and who knows these days - her improvement is not sufficient evidence of it.

'UK, you always pop up as an apologist for suspected drug cheats'

It's only on this site where every fast time is a 'suspected drug cheat' I didn't see these comments after Vessey ran 2:03 in London!

Usually I am on here defending the Ethiopians. You know its only on this site that nerds are rattling on about them cheating. I've actually trained with Ethiopians, whereas I suspect you don't f all about it.

Every fast time - oh its drugs. Why do you watch the sport if thats what you really think - I definitely would not

..and one more thing.. I would increase all the current drugs bans for convicted drug cheats, -2 years is a joke! The IAAF wanted to increase the ban from 2 to 4 years to those Russians recently. But their federation managed to get it down to 2 years 9 months. Now that is what I call taking the p1ss! I would send them to Siberia for 4 years with a certain British sprinter for company!

you sir are an ass & on my list of dicks.

BR ran 200 miles the first week of Jan 1975 before his breakout 2;09.55

The IAAF site lists Meridith's legitimate 400m open race best as 53.25 in New York in 1995. My point in providing the chart of 400m/800m bests was to point out that women differ in how they carry over their 400m speed to 800 meters. Not just a difference between men and women as was mentioned earlier. If an athlete on the chart was a drug user both 400 and 800 times would benefit. There is the possibility that a 400m best was run years apart from the 800m best and may not have been influenced by drugs or vice versa (less likely). Anyhow, I was hoping to prove that it is not unusual for a female 53.61 (400m) gal to be able to run 1:57.84. I think I did that! In addition, I think those gals with the high differential are 400/800m runners, the gals in the middle of the chart are true 800m runners, and the ones at the bottom tend to be 800/1500m runners or ought to be. Mary Slaney would be at the bottom of this list with a presumed slow 400m but still a fine 800. A physiologically "true" 800m runner like Pam Jelimo AND Maggie Vessey can excel with less natural speed than the sub 50 400m gals.

Meredith ran 51.56 for 400 meters while at Harvard.

no one really cares about some random PR. she hasn't done jack at the world scene yet.

Well, Meredith ran 51.56 in college. Clopek, as I pointed out earlier, is coming off an EPO bust, so she doesn't prove anything except drugs can be effective. Wachtel ran on a 3:21.1 bronze medal world championship team, so that 54 listed grossly understates her speed.

Why you want include Clopek, Wachtel, and Slaney - three clear drug users - in the discussion escapes me.

oops - she wore her shorts inside out....

She just flip the upper part of her shorts, you dumbass!