no interval work success?

Tinman: Your posts are so good and true. I hope every HS-runner and HS-coach read this thread, there are many things to learn from you.

wo er recht hat, hat er recht. mir gefällt, dass tinman sich auch auf die erkenntnisse der DDR-Forschung (IAT) von Prof. Mader aus den frühen 80er jahren bezieht, d.h. auf die wichtigkeit der aeroben schwelle (2mmol/L) hinweisst.

i like that tinman refers to the scientific conclusions of prof. mader from leipzig (former GDR), i.e. the importance of the aerobic threshold at 2 mmol/L lactate for building up a solid base suitable for every distance training.

most of gdr-athletic was doping (eg. turinabol, now made in thailand) and sometimes awfull experiments with young girls and boys), but science is still valid.

cheers

jba (leipzig)

I wish I knew how to read German language so that I could read articles by Dr. Alois Mader et al. In the early and mid-80s I relied on articles written in Europe which translated the studies done on lactate. It was hard reading because it was mostly data, not set in practical terms and certainly limited to just things like how much lactate was being created for swimmers.

As a runner and future coach, I had to really look closely at the numbers, make calculations and comparsons, and read a lot of physiology from other textbooks to interpret the information. It was worth the efort and time. They were great researchers, and I appreciate them very much.

A few years back, my roomate and I were running 100-105 mpw. Half at about 6:30 average and the other half hovering around 6:00 to start and finishing at 5:30-5:40 pace. We were doing this for about 8 weeks in December-January and the only other thing we did was run 10 x 100 m strides 3 times/week and do sprint drills 2-3 times/ wk. Every morning would be a 10-11 miler followed by drills or strides. We decided to race indoors, not expecting much. He ran a 3k in 8:02 a pr, and I ran a 5k in 15:09 also a pr. Nothing but mileage, drills and strides. We developed good aerobic systems, while also developing efficiency (drills), and speed (drills and strides), and that was enough to lead us to pr's in our season openers without intervals of any kind.

Stories like yours need to be told more. With interval mania pervading, it is sad to see so many runners not reaching their goals. One key point about this entire discussion is true: some runners can prosper on distance work with little fast rep or interval work. Many runners find become discouraged when the results of their hard toil seem to end after 2-3 years. Continuing to run fast reps when it has fizzled out is a common theme perpetuated by the publicity of the need for it. The Morrocoans do it, Hicham does it, so I have to if I want to run fast like him. This may be true for some peopel, but many do not succeed with such an approach, at least not over the longer term.

Again, to an extent, the discussion here reveals some basic truths Lydiard and a few others who were ahead of their time said some 50 years ago, aerobic conditioning is the most important thing a runner can do, rather than reps or intervals. Distance running creates the foundation of racing success, Lydiard said.

Others like Jim Petersen who ran marathons learned the hard way that distance running helps one race over a variety of distances. Jim did it because he wanted to run marathons, but he ran faster at other distances too. Ron Clarke was interval trained to the max as teen and burned out, but he later came back to bust many world records based upon lots of moderate to strong paced distance running, minimal amounts of ins and outs and racing to sharpen his skills.

In this information there may be something for you too.

Tinman,

(Maybe you missed this post the first time?)

You say that:

"Craig described his own training and it dawned on me that he fit the mold of a person who did not have much natural speed, but he made the most of his ability by doing moderate paced distance in volume consistently."

Are you implying that individuals who have a moderate to low amount of natural speed are potentially more likely to benefit from this type of training?

That is, would you post that a "stamina" runner is more likely an individual who enjoys greater success at longer distance events, such as the 10k on up?

Yes, you are right. Typically, runners who are less speedy in the short distance prosper a lot from distance training and less speed-rep work. However, I have known 800-1500m runners who had halted progress by doing fast 150s-600m reps and then improved by adding strong paced 5-10 mile runs to their schedules. Stamina is very important for all events, even the 400m. If I were coaching 400m runners now, I would do schedule 1-2 strong paced 3 milers each week,after a thorough warm up. I saw Elvis Forde do this to perfection. He could run a 3 miler at 18 minutes or better 2-3 times per week all fall and winter. He ran in the 44s for 400m and was the best in the world at 500 indoors in the 1980s at one point.

I have been doing the lydiard program. i am now on the 78mpw this week.today i did a 15mile long run and i started at 743pace but by the end i was running 712 pace. i ran 726pace overall. why does this always happen when i do a long run. the pace starts slow and gradually gets faster without me even knowing it.

and also what would you recommend i add to this lydiard program to help me more, as i will be a frosh in college at temple university.

emmanuel wrote:

I have been doing the lydiard program. i am now on the 78mpw this week.today i did a 15mile long run and i started at 743pace but by the end i was running 712 pace. i ran 726pace overall. why does this always happen when i do a long run. the pace starts slow and gradually gets faster without me even knowing it.

perfectly normal, in fact, the correct way to run most all aerobic distance runs! first, your body is slowly easing into the run, or at least you should let that happen. as you progress, you find yourself feeling in the zone and can gradually pick up. that's the correct way to run. running like that can make almost every day a "tempo" for the last 5-15 minutes of hour runs.

no problem. just relaxed and by feel.

Tinman wrote

"I wish I knew how to read German language so that I could read articles by Dr. Alois Mader et al. In the early and mid-80s I relied on articles written in Europe which translated the studies done on lactate. It was hard reading because it was mostly data, not set in practical terms and certainly limited to just things like how much lactate was being created for swimmers.

As a runner and future coach, I had to really look closely at the numbers, make calculations and comparsons, and read a lot of physiology from other textbooks to interpret the information. It was worth the efort and time. They were great researchers, and I appreciate them very much."

my coach did his studies and wrote his thesis at the institute of prof. mader (like the most coaches in the former GDR). his a very good coach with impressing deep knowledge, and: he is coaching some young and older fun runners (like myself) for fun himself (the time before he coached also the best german marathoner in the 90is). all coaches of the former GDR had been educated in leipzig. there is no place at the world with as much jobless excellent educated professional coaches like leipzig (hundreds...). i do not know much about it, but they know everything about lactate-stuff - everything!

maybe it is interesting for you: the research group for endurance in athletics (Dr. Boehm) at the "Institut fuer angewandte Trainingswissenschaft" (http://sport-iat.de/) finished a recent 3-years study in order to develop further the training theory to enhance aerobic endurance in athletics. i asked recently for the report, but they do not publish it, because the report contains personal data. but i am pretty sure, if you have questions, you can ask via email:

iat@iat.uni-leipzig.de

as i did have a question, i got answer quite soon. dr. boehm kindly invited me to come along to discuss my questions.

grüsse aus leipzig

jba

Tinman: I am sorry, I meant Dr. Olaf Ernst from the IAT-Leipzig

email-contact remains ok:

iat@iat.uni-leipzig.de

Dr. Boehm is wrong (mixed it with my own work)

some kind of weird

jba

watching yesterday "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" made me pretty weird :=)

I have found myself to be very similar to people posting on this thread. My coach came froma speed orientated background. When he started coaching me my 5k pb was 14.53 and my 1500 pb 4.02 and I'd runa 31.02 10k. In the first year he coached me we did not do very much intense work, most of the sessions, which were twice weekly revolved around 4 x mile at 5k pace with 90 secs recovery or maybe 3 x 2k with 90 secs rec. or 6 x 1200 with 90 secs jog. I was running about 65/70 miles per week and had previously had lots of problems with illness. In the first year I ran 3.56, 14.28 and 30.40.

the following season we changed things around and did more speed work in the hope that a quicker 1500 would improve my 5k which was my priority. We introduced session like 2 x 5 x 400 with 200 jog in 60 seconds and 800 differentails with the first lap in 68 and the second in 64. My mileage remained the same at about 70 miles per week. on this recipe I continually broke down with colds/flu, lingering fatigue. This troubled me on and off for about 18 months to 2 years and I raced only a handful of times, around 14.45 over 5k and poor xc results. I then began to read about acid levels in the blood after high intensity workouts.

When I had fully recovered from illness we changed my programme, running more miles at a gentler pace, running to and from work, the mileage went up to 80 miles per week and the midweek track session was replaced with a tempo run of 4 miles within an hour run. The track session remained similar to what I had done before, 4 x mile, 3 x 2k, at 5k pace. That summer I ran 3.56 again but my 5k came down to 14.23 and my 10k to 30.20.

The following winter I had far better xc results, my mileage went up to 90 per week and the track session remained but was slwoer with shorter recoveries, 5 mile at 10k pace with 60 secs. rec. etc... the tempo run remained and I sometimes did a road fartlek session which could be quite hard. That summer I ran 3.51, 14.11, 29.53. I only did 2 sessions which were at pace, or rather below 65/66 secs per lap. As the seasonw ent on we did more speed work and less endurance in an attempt to get below 3.50 and I got steadily worse.

This year I have reduced the amount of track work further due to work commitments and facilities. My mileage has gone up to 90-95 per week, I have run 14.10 so far this season, i have a 10k next week. The weekend track session has been the same but varied with a set of differentials two weekly, often differential miles, 73, 70,67,64 which I think gives me far better change of pace than any speed session. I have also introduced drills once per week to try and improve leg strength.

For me the amount of base work I can do shows no real limits so I feel i can always progress with further commitment but I felt taht the short recovery stuff and the fast anaerobic stuff just broke me down. Its also important to eat an alkaline diet when doing a lot of intensive track work.

newbalance: Thanks for sharing your story. Once again, a great example of intense training not being as beneficial and more distance work and slower reps plus threshold. I have coached runners just like you, newbalance, who trained hard, had mediocre results, and then when they slowed down two things happened:

1) They felt better daily and enjoyed their running more;

2) They ran better in races.

emmanuel wrote:

I have been doing the lydiard program. i am now on the 78mpw this week.today i did a 15mile long run and i started at 743pace but by the end i was running 712 pace. i ran 726pace overall. why does this always happen when i do a long run. the pace starts slow and gradually gets faster without me even knowing it.

and also what would you recommend i add to this lydiard program to help me more, as i will be a frosh in college at temple university.

Indeed, I do recommend the Lydiard program concept of building aerobic endurance. The core principle is one which I recommend as the norm. It will raise you to very high levels, especially if you return to it over and over. Even 10 week blocks of higher mileage (relative to your history) at moderate speeds (some runs slower - what Lydiard called 1/4th effort - longer runs, some runs moderate - 1/2 effort, and some at 3/4th effort).

I suggest you get in weekly 8-10 milers at about 45-60 seconds per mile over your current 5k pace.

One 8-10 miler at 45-60 seconds per mile over 5k pace per week; two at the most.

I think there are a number of factors why runners respond to intervals or not. Lactate tolerence and technique are 2 of the main ones. I had a runner who had been English schools Champion over 1500 metres and who moved up to 5k in the 9 years between when he won that race and when I started coaching him. He had by this time pbs of 3-42 and 13-56. He had ran 3 interval sessions a week and his lactate tolerence was excellent but his aerobic bases was terrible. With a winter of 80- 90 steady miles and no intervals until april he improved to 3-56 mile and 13-24 5k

Next year he won British 10k after 100 miles a week winter again no intervals. At the same time another runner in the group had done the opposite . He had ran pure mileage throughout the winter for years and had very poor lactate tolerence. He had ran 13-42 5 years prior without improvement. I had him do intervals during the winter and his 5k came down to 13-28 and he eventually won the British 10k also and went on to win an Olympic bronze at marathon. Exactly how much mileage and lactate work are the key components in making any schedule and its different for each runner. This is the coaches main role. As Antiono Cabral stated on another thread - you have a framework for all runners as to where you can start. Then you see where your runners requirent differs from that framework even if it only seems slight. Even with the runner who I mentioned above who ran no intervals - in the light of what I now know I would have included some sessions. There must be some element of lactate work in every schedule and this would be in the base period too. With regard to technique mileage can alter this substantially in some runners. Their stride becomes shorter and speed becomes difficult to regain. Also injury problems occur in the type of runner when he tries to regain the speed. The whole key is to look at each runner individually.

However! Last October after following a plan which had worked very well I did start to increase the intensity and distance of some of my longer runs. Up until this point I did 100% of my running on my own, I started meeting a friend (2.15 marathon runner and high fairly intense mileage) twice a week and we would do 1 run of 1hr 35 and 1 run of 2 hrs, they were never quick, maybe 6 minute miles but they often built up to 5.30's over the latter miles. These runs began to have a detremental effect on my training the rest of the week and I ended up with similar problems to when I trained with lots of intense track sessions. they were simply too damaging to my system. Its a fine line...

You musta' been fried after all that.

Did you have continued success and PR's after that? How much of an improvement over the old PR's did you guys get?

I'm just thinkin' that was a LOT of hard running, and a little slower running (on occasion) might have been better for recovery purposes.

but i dont know my 5k pace, i havent raced in a while