Did Said Aoutia and Hicham El G dope too?

El G is not a doper simply because of his consistency. If you doped for as many years as El G was dominant...you would be dead. Dead much like Stephen Ondieki, David Kimani, or Ryan Shay. One day your heart would just mysteriously stop.

El G ran 3:26 twice and also many years apart. He ran 3:27-3:29 countless times after that. Whereas, people like RR and Viren just show upto one race and win...while sucking it up for all other races. Now that is weird.

no, he was surely doped

Of course it's hard to say. Aouita was probably juiced judging by all of the stories. With El G, logic would say he was lanced as hell - he absolutely dominated the most ridiculously lanced era in distance running history. On the other hand, he was very good from a very young age, and if you just look at his form, his body, his toughness... if there's anyone who could run those kinds of times, it's him.

That's the problem with accusing the legends - people like El G and Carl Lewis might have been lanced, but they were also the most talented and toughest guys out there. It's not like they came out of relative obscurity to dominate the world like Ramzi and Flo Jo.

Just because it says on Wikipedia that he ran 1:42.7 in a workout; probably hand timed (if it even did happen!) and with 4 of his entourage running each 200m at 25.5 for him; it doesn't make it official. There are lots of athletes who could claim they ran amazing pbs in training, but we don't accept them as genuine.

I have no doubt EL G could have run a 1:43 at his peak based on his 1500m times, but it is very strange that he never ran them competitively on the circuit, even though he was more of a 1500/5000 type; as a way of sharpening up for important races at his specialised 1500m. Perhaps he wanted to maintain his impressive win/loss record and thought a defeat to the likes of Kipketer or others might affect him psychologically and diminish his heir of invincibility!?

It's also strange to me that Lagat has yet to break 1:45 for 800 and Ngeny (the world 1000m record holder) has never broken 1:44. As EPO is an endurance based stimulant that would have a negligible effect on an 800m guy, but an increasing benefit as the distance increased, perhaps this goes someway to explain the quite sudden change in focus for 1500m guys from 800m to 5000m as their secondary event. I mean how many 1500m runners in the late 90's (when there wasn't even the deterrent to getting caught) could run around 13 mins (equivalent to the WR about a decade earlier) for 5000m? something which had always (historically) required a little more specialised work up to that point.

Moreover, these guys were able to run really close to their 800 pb in the last 2 laps of their 1500m races. If they can run 1:46 at the end of a 3:36-3:40 1500m, surely they can run 3-4 seconds faster over 800m, bringing them into contention for 800m medals. Yet, they never run them in the majors (Ramzi, ironically, being one of the recent few that did) and seldom on the circuit. I wonder why!?

People who aren't prepared to look at all the facts and dismiss the guilt of some by saying that as they run 3:27 or so after 2002 (when a test for EPO finally emerged) they couldn't be on it, will have to face the facts that Ramzi would have got away with it had the IOC not brought in the new ruling about keeping samples for 8 years, just prior to the Games. There are doubtless many others who have got away with it since 2002, and even more who got away with it in the 10 years preceding this.

I would say his consistency over a relatively long career is actually more inclined to show that he did dope. I mean all the greats had bad seasons and got beaten from time to time (e.g Ryun, Snell, Coe, Cram, etc); usually due to coming back from injury or illness; yet EL G always seemed to be able and want to run at, or very close to WR pace, in almost all his races. This always seemed bizarre to me at the time. I also thought it strange that he never really suffered any major injury or illness, and when he did, he'd come out and run 3:29! Others would have been happy just to get round and be near the front 3 at the end. This seemed un-human even.

Also, he ran a lot fewer races than some of his great predecessors. His average number of races a season was what? About 12!? Ovett used to run about 30. This could explain why he was able to run so many fast races, but they seemed to follow a pattern and he usually ran at the same meets each year.

I was also reading somewhere this week that there is growing evidence for some scientists to suggest that certain drugs actually have a long term benefit even after their use has been stopped. Perhaps others read this or can give more detailed evidence behind the claims? Whose to say that many of the guys in the mid 90's began using EPO, used for a couple of seasons on & off, but were helped by this use for the rest of their careers, even after EPO testing came into being.

I think EL G, doped or not, was able to get very close to his potential through some very efficient pace-making, and I think that had Coe or Cram had similar circumstances at their peaks, they were capable of around 3:28, but even they wouldn't be able to run so many times at or near that level.

For me the fact that EL G was Moroccan, never ran 800m, never missed any Champs through injury/illness, could run at WR pace almost all the time, needed help from team-mates in several Championship situations and ran few races a year, all make me suspicious of his times. I'm not saying that he wasn't incredibly talented or the best of his generation (nor do I think many of his contemporaries were clean either), but the fact that hardly anyone has managed to break 3:30 since 2004 (Ramzi being one of the few exceptions!) makes the evidence against him quite compelling. Nick Willis's dad was on the button when he said yesterday that he didn't think his son would have been anywhere near good enough to be in contention for a medal had he been competing 8 years ago, due to the fact that there were so many cheating.

I don't think his consistency and his lack of 800 racing are factors either way. If he were inconsistent, it would seem shady, but as it his, his consistency seems super human. I think the main evidence for him being dirty is his total dominance in an era of extreme doping. That and Kaouch's positive.

si stitchup wrote:

Did Said and Hichem dope too?

Nearly soiled myself in laughter. Is Lance Armstrong a cheat? Is Alan Webb?

you guys as a race are fantastically ignorant, but surely not THAT much

Yeah, but not as self deceptive, hypocritically racist and innately evil though as either of the main groups fighting in the Middle East, and we're not talkin' Christians, they have other problems. Who's our ally that's always giving US Technology to China?

Hicham El Guerrouj continues his fight against doping wearing a red ribbon.

“I don’t want to start in a race with someone next to me, who was prepared in a laboratory. If one day I was found positive, I’ll give back all the money and medals I’ve won.”

a quote i found on mvd website from 2002 regarding el-g stance on doping

it would be hard to believe that someone that is so vehemenently against doping would be using them

But what was Ramzi saying.

Fountain quoted to the newspapers in australia that Said was pressuring him to use performance enhancers on the trip. It is really a weird coincidence that six months later Said lost his job at Australian Athletics and Fountain stayed in the US and ran a six second personal best in the 1500m a year later. FACT. check it.

Guppy wrote:

My opinion: Aouita for sure. One of the best in the world from 800-10000m with a WR 5000m and just barely off in the 1500 (Cram beat him)? Morrocan? That, along with some of the stuff I've read about him makes me think he was very dirty.

El G? I'd like to hope not as I'm a fan, but 3:26 and 3:43 are pretty damn ridiculous. Quite a few 3:30-3:34 guys have been busted, and even the English dope trio of the 80s couldn't run faster than 3:29 and 3:45.

English dope trio? F*** you, Man.

In El G's defense,

I could see how El G was 100% clean. You can see the amount of preparation, focus, and discipline in the man's eyes during races. You can see how perfectly he keeps his body. You can see how perfectly he stays relaxed while his face is the only thing that gives away how hard he's really working. He's probably the hardest working runner in the history of the sport. He had the running down to a formula. Only the same select races every year. His superior work ethic is evident in his training schedules.

I've never seen another runner as focused and disciplined as him. Thats why everything he does seems possible to me.

I know, lets accuse any runner who did well of doping, unless we like them.

I'm pretty sure Coe, Ovett, Cram, Pre, Kennedy, Zatopec, Numri, Bannister, Willis, Webb, Lagat, Meb, Abdi, Torres, Ritz, Hall, and every US running doing 400 or less doped.

Not that I have anything to support any of this but obviously it is naive to think testing works and they all ran well so they must be dopers.

This thread and a lot of the comments since Ramzi are just absurd. Any good runner seems to be open for accusation because their performances were "unhuman," which seems to be a euphemism for just really good. The thing I find shocking is that people seem to be serious in thinking that running well means definitively that one is doping. Or in the case of Shay, dying suddenly without running exceptionally well (and an autopsy that showed no sign of any drug).

Might as well say that anybody who has ever beaten me in a race must be doping because to do well they have to cheat but I know I don't.

Don\'t make it sound like Fountain was taking drugs. He was the athlete who left Aouita whilst on a training camp blowing the lid on what he was trying to get his athletes to do. He was shunned by Athletics Australia for doing so whilst Aouita continued to work with his athletes for the next 12months whilst Fountain moved to Arkansas and two years later ran a 6sec PR. Fountain should be applauded for having the gutts to stick up for what he believes in.

First of all, it is not strange that EL G didn't run the 800m competitively. On the circut he was promoted to run the 1500m/mile and that was what he was paid the most to do. I have no doubt he could go 1:42 in a race-he didn't have a lack of speed, some of his 3:26-3:30 1500m races had laps of 51 and 52 seconds in there, hell in his 3:26.00 he closed in 53.5! I have no doubt that El G could medal at 800m, but he probably wouldn't get the gold, and that is what he is after.

As for Lagat and Ngeny, when have they ran an 800m in top form? I think Ngeny coming through the 800m in 1:44 in his 1000m record show he is a 1:43 man at least, and probably a 1:42. They could both have medaled at 800m, but probably not gold.

El G racing on the European circut (where the drug testin is at the highest level) consistantly for many years does not show he was on drugs. Your logic is...well, you don't really have any. He didn't just show up to championships and clean up. 12 races does not seem like that small of a number. That is racing once a week for 3 months, pretty typical for top athletes. Compared to 30, yes, but 30 is a LOT of races in a year. Ovett probably overraced. Next you are going to say El G was on drugs because he didn'tf race cross country or something...

Ryun got mono/overtrained. Coe got his blood disorder (THAT is suspicious, if anything is). Coe also had mechanical issues that he had to sort out early in his career. Cram had poor mechanics in the lower leg and was often injured. Snell was too big to run as good of a mile as 800m. Was Herb Elliot on drugs just because he was consitant and unbeaten?

El Guerrouj had nearly perfect mechanics (drugs don't change mechanics, which is when I get suspicious of a fast running with very poor mechanics-*cough* salazar *cough*), trained very very hard for many years (and usually very very smart as well) and was rarely injured, if ever. I remember Morecroft saying that he wasn't surprised people were running a lot quicker then he was because he was healthy about 50% of the time.

I guess it's lose-lose for the athletes with people like you. Runs a lot of race, he must be on drugs. Runs very few races, must be on drugs. Consistant? must be the drugs. Not consistant...you get the picture?

And half of those things you mention at the end make absolutely no sense-being Morrocan I can under stand, but being paced by his teammates? Never missing championships? Never running the 800m? WTF ARE YOU ON?

El G seem too nice to dope. Anybody can give example of a nice guy getting caught doping? Ramzi has always seemed like a I don't give a f**k about anyone kind of guy.

"On the circut he was promoted to run the 1500m/mile and that was what he was paid the most to do."

Then that implies his main motives were financial rather than running what was best to get him in top shape for championships. All the top 1500 guys from history would run the odd 800, especially near Championships, to "sharpen" up. Not so EL G. Was that because he was supremely confident?

Most of the top 5 or 6 in the world any year in the 1500m would be able to run the last lap in 51/52 depending on the pace. That doesn't guarantee 1:42 or 1:43 ability at 800m. Of course EL G's leg speed was better than most 1500m runners, and he would have run 1:43. I just think it is unusual that he didn't run them at all. There were only 2 or 3 guys (even in the late 90's) who were sub 1:43, and you can't tell me that EL G couldn't have arranged to run the odd "low key" meet in Europe without the likes of Kipketer or Rodahl in the field and with a pacemaker taking him through the first lap in 50! He had enough "weight" in the sport to get paid his usual sum and run a fast 800 rather than a 1500 every time. If he ran an official 1:43 weeks before a Champs, wouldn't that have given him an even greater psychological advantage over his rivals?

As for Ngeny, anyone who can run 2:12 for 1K is certainly capable of running 1:42 for 800, and would be more than capable of competing with Kipketer, who could only manage 2:14.

I don't think Lagat has even broken 1:46 has he?

You make valid points but I'm sure El G was supremely confident. He didn't need to run 800s to succeed. And I'm sure a lot of his motives were financial, but the tears in his eyes after both Atlanta and Athens show that it was about more then just money.

I would say running 3.75 laps under 55 second/lap pace points to 1:42high ability at least-after all, cram was 3 seconds slower at 1500/mile and ran 1:42.8. I just don't see El G being slower then Cram at any distance, maybe 200/400 but not 800m.

Again though, 800m prs mean nothing when they are clearly easily breakable by the athlete when running in peak form. It doesn't show great endurance running 4:00 for the mile when my 800m pr is 1:57, it just shows that I can run an 800m pr any day of the week.