Who would win? 1988 Ben Johnson vs. 2008 Usain Bolt? If they were able to race head to head right now, Ben being in 1988 shape and Usain in 2008 shape, what a race that would be!!
Who would win? 1988 Ben Johnson vs. 2008 Usain Bolt? If they were able to race head to head right now, Ben being in 1988 shape and Usain in 2008 shape, what a race that would be!!
Ben in 88 was a monster out of the block and had another gear at 60m to discourage the rest of the field, he could've ran 9.6 easy - Ben by a foot
Ben has the best start ever!
Err.... Bolt by a tenth perhaps? 9.69 against 9.79
do we take away drugs...? doesn't ben lose either way? kind of dumb to think it's even competitive.
Throwing away the obvious fact that Big-Ben was on Big-Roids, his performance is more similiar to Bolt's amazing run than any other 100m race. Smashes the WR (by more than Bolt did), destroys an amazing field, and starts celebrating before the line.
notdoped wrote:
Err.... Bolt by a tenth perhaps? 9.69 against 9.79
Both eased up into the finish. But you have to factor in Bolt running his in ZERO wind, which is a big deal.
Charlie Francis has already answered this one, and not in favor of Ben.
It would have been closer had Ben, Gay (healthy), or Mo been there, but only a little closer. The result would have been the same.
I think if Ben ran it would be close! Factor in todays training advantages knowledge know how go back 20 years ,add in his intimidating start blow up his muscle proportions by say 5-6% and you got yerself a RACE!!!
C.A.N.A.D.A.! Ben takes it by a nose lol.
SAMRS vs. steroids? Who wins?!
Stupid question--Ben was a drug cheat.
I used to think that Bolt would win, but now I'm not sure.
It would be damn close.
Ben, is/was physically more talented then Bolt, he is the true BEAST.
In some youtube video, Ben says that if he were running today, he would be going 9.3
Well, I think that's a bit optimistic, but I think 9.60 is a real possibility.
notdoped wrote:
Err.... Bolt by a tenth perhaps? 9.69 against 9.79
What? Bolt actually ran 9.58....you can't validly claim that Johnson would go faster.
Sprintgeezer wrote:
In some youtube video, Ben says that if he were running today, he would be going 9.3
Well, I think that's a bit optimistic, but I think 9.60 is a real possibility.
I saw that too a while back he gets his shit a little mixed up sometimes but I'll give him at LEAST that (9.6x), I think he would actually run faster "nowadays". Def with or ahead of Bolt. I suppose (geezer) you saw the infamous 9.79 "live" (I wasnt born) how did that compare to Bolt's 9.58. Which one had the bigger "wow" effect?
9.79 had the biggest "wow" effect of anything in track, ever, IMHO.
Bannister's sub-4 was huge, but it didn't have the international audience that 9.79 did.
9.79 may have been the first time that somebody celebrated in an Olympic 100m or WC 100m before crossing the line.
Plus all the subtext, which was well-publicized both before and during the games, and not only in Canada and the USA.
Bolt is a worldwide phenom, and everybody loves him--the problem is, there is nobody to hate on the other side! When Johnson won, the whole world loved him except for the USA--when Bolt won, lots of people just sat back in disgust, because they were focused on him and the time, rather than on the defeat of an external enemy. If Johnson hadn't had Lewis on the other side, the reaction probably would have been the same for the 9.79--but it wasn't, it was completely different.
I would actually say that Bolt's 9.69 in Beijing was bigger than his 9.58 in Berlin. Bigger stage, and celebration before the line to an even greater extent than in the 9.79, and a 0.0 wind reading made for a HUGE race.
Celebrating before the line is a big deal--it means that there is mystery to the athlete, and continued interest in their maximum capability. Bolt's bigger celebration indicated a greater maximum capability than did Johnson's...
...BUT, that sense of mystery also derives from the person as a character, and as an athlete.
Bolt is outgoing and accessible, Johnson was shy and retiring. Bolt likes to flap his gums, whereas every time Johnson spoke it was quick and hard-hitting, just like him coming out of the blocks. Because of Bolt's accessibility, people are more likely to be able to see something of themselves in him, and to identify with him, and therefore he is less of a mystery than was Johnson--that's why you had lots of people saying that he was so fast just because he was tall, because that was all they could identify about him that was out of the ordinary.
Johnson, on the other hand, was something else entirely, something never seen before. 6'-5" sprinters we have had before Bolt, but Johnson was a real 1.0 Johnson's muscular striations had striations. His muscular density had density. Looking at him was like looking at a bodybuilder--it was weird. Unlike muscular sprinters before or since, he was economically developed for the demands of the 100m, as he ran it--look at his musculature, not big and dense everywhere, but big and dense only where it counted the most.
He was incomprehensible, not only to fans, but to other sprinters. Plenty of guys were on roids, but none were like Johnson. It is that incomprehensibility that gave Johnson the supreme aura of mystery--sure, if he had run through the line and leaned he might have gone 9.76 rather than 9.79, but that basic incomprehensibility suggested no well-defined limit to his ability.
Bolt has run the fastest 100m in history, IMO, when he ran his 9.69, which would have been a 9.57-9.60 had he run through the line, with zero wind.
Johnson, OTOH, ran the greatest 100m race in history. He led the race from the crack of the gun to the finish. For you distance runners, he was Rudisha-esque, absolutely dominant, not just only at the 100m line, but everywhere. Nobody beat him at anything. His dominance was absolute.
Plus, Johnson was unique in his racing style. Nobody before or since has raced like him, whereas there are plenty of people with Bolt's racing style.
Absolute dominance combined with absolute uniqueness in both physical development and racing style, and no known ceiling to his potential, and a better story-line with a clearly defined and hated enemy, and a worldwide audience with emotional involvement in the drama, is why 9.79 was bigger than 9.58, or 9.69
Great post Sprintgeezer. I like the Rudisha analogy. I think we chatted about Ben's two foot take off before, his explosion out of the blocks. Mark McKoy also did this, I used to see them practice it at York. Equipment and training count for something. Obviously Ben ran as hard as he had to to win. Bolt at his best would be very hard to beat but if anyone ever could, I would bet on Ben.
IN FACT, NONE OF THE OTHER ATHLETES EVEN CLOSED ON JOHNSON IN SEOUL, EXCEPT FOR SMITH FROM 10-20m, BY .01s, AND LEWIS FROM 90-100, BY .02s, AFTER THE RACE WAS ALREADY WON AND WHILE JOHNSON WAS CELEBRATING--THE GAP BETWEEN JOHNSON AND EVERYBODY ELSE, THAT JOHNSON ESTABLISHED AFTER HIS RACE-LEADING REACTION TIME OF .132, NEVER GOT SMALLER. (the same may be true of Bolt's 9.58, IDK)
ABSOLUTE DOMINANCE.
THERE IS NO DOUBT IN MY MIND THAT IF JOHNSON WERE COMPETING TODAY, FOR JAMAICA, THAT HE WOULD BE AT LEAST AS GOOD AS BOLT HAS BEEN.
Was Johnson really a better starter than Powell though? Powell has run a relay split as fast as anyone's- 8.70 to Bolt's 8.71. Of course these numbers aren't accurate to the 1/10 of a second, but it seems like he was a lot faster than people give him credit for. I think he could have run faster in the open 100m than he did, and perhaps still will.
Either way, Bolt has that insane stride. He's made the 100 about the last 50 meters, and in his 2009 record he split faster than the 60m world record anyways. Johnson would win a 40 yard dash sure, but not a 100m.
Just finished "Dirtiest race in History" which has a lot of detail on Lewis/Johnson and the culture at the time. Also - the complete lack of out of competition testing.
Reminded me of just how big a deal 9.79 was. Getting in the 9.9s was huge in the 80s and Ben did 9.79. And 6 out of the 8 in that race were involved in drug incidents at some time in their careers. Only Calvin Smith and the Brazilian guy (De Silva?) were not.
if the best in the world not too long ago needed drugs to get in the 9.9s - let alone 9.79 - how come so many of the current stars are faster?
Four guys from a small island have gone faster in the last few years than Ben did even with the help of the roids and another one is 1/100 slower. I'm a sceptic.