SIMON VROEMEN POSITIVE TEST

ventolin wrote:

therefore answer this - when did your supposed "more sensitive" drug test come into existence ?

last week ?

2/52 ago ??

The correct question isn't when a particular test "came into existence." Rather, the correct question is when the test was introduced into the anti-doping protocol.

Although methandrostenolone has been in use for fifty years, the tests for detecting its use have become increasingly sensitive during the last few years. The fact that at least twelve world-class athletes have tested positive for the drug during the last month suggests to me that the current test is detecting doping that, until very recently, was going undetected. As I said, if this guy pursues the matter through arbitration -- which I doubt he will -- we'll get more information about that.

unfortunately for you, this "improved" test came into existence in mid-'05 & failed to pick up vroemen who was presumaby doping for months, until now

http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/Schanzer_Prohibited_2006.pdf

And how, exactly, does the introduction of a new test in 2005 preclude the introduction of a new test in 2008?

Except that Vroemen was "retired" and thus was not being tested.

because wada has finite budget & are open on the test research they are doing :

http://www.wada-ama.org/en/dynamic.ch2?pageCategory.id=346

the metandienone test for them was declared completed sometime after '06 & none of their ongoing projects have further metandienone research mentioned

or are you now going to say wada are liars ???

Fast 100 wrote:

Except that Vroemen was "retired" and thus was not being tested.

it's not that simple

iy you "unretire", you usually have to have 1y of random testing before you are allowed to compete again ( perhaps discretion allowed to 1/2 this time )

bottom line is : you do have to have a period of time with random testing after officially coming back before you can compete

it appears vroemen's retirment situation is not clear

Why would he choose a product that is pretty easily detectable and so long lasting in the system?

Seems strange.

Not many places to go hide in the mountains in Holland, maybe that's what he slipped up on.

Wouldn't WADA have an incentive to keep quiet an improved test, to catch more cheaters?

ventolin wrote:

are you now going to say wada are liars ???

No, although I'm tempted to say that you're an idiot.

But I won't.

It is, however, idiotic to contend that doping controls in sport are limited by a few projects, about a few discrete topics, that happen to have been funded by WADA grants. Moreover, by your own admission, this particular WADA-funded project, regarding the detection of one particular and previously-unidentified metabolite of metandienone, was still ongoing during 2006. Furthermore, contrary to all of this talk about detecting metandienone use nine months after the fact (thereby making it an absurd choice for serious competitive athletes seeking to skirt doping rules), that particular WADA-funded study ultimately reached the following conclusion:

"17a-Methyl-17b-hydroxymethyl-androst-1,4,13-trien-3-one was determined in Metandienone administration study urine specimens up to 19 days after application of a single dose of 5 mg, hence providing a detection period extended by more than one week compared to commonly employed strategies."

Regardless of whether Vroemen knowingly doped, his credibility is not enhanced by his suggestion that metandienone is a "medicine" that just puffs up muscles without significant strength gains and that is detectable through doping controls nine months after its use, making it an absurd choice for competitive athletes subject to doping controls.

wierd story, whatever the truth.Interesting that his big PBs came after EPO tests were in place , not during the late 90s when some Euro guys did never-repeated performances.

I don't see how a 39 year old guy, even doped, can run an 8.12 chase without being pretty hugely committed over many months, rather than retired.

He certianly isn't a stupid guy - manegemnet in one of the big Dutch oil companies, and never a full time athlete? He would of course have been tested, out of comp by IAAF 'targeted' tests very frequently down the years - as any nonAFrican running an 8.04 chase would expect to be.

well, i have no qualms about calling you an idiot - you are

name any other organisation in the world who grants significant funds to research into anti-doping

further, that project is designated as completed & therefore at latest, test wouda been up & running by end '07 - a good 6/12 before vromen's +ve

tell us why he didn't get picked up in 1st 1/2 of '08 with a 19/7 detection window

ventolin wrote:

well, i have no qualms about calling you an idiot - you are

Ventolin, your posts make it fairly clear that you're either (a) someone directly connected with Simon V, or (b) intellectually deficient.

For what it's worth (not much, I admit), every steepler on the circuit knew that Vroemen and Damian Kallabis were doped.

ventolin wrote:

that project is designated as completed & therefore at latest, test wouda been up & running by end '07 - a good 6/12 before vromen's +ve

tell us why he didn't get picked up in 1st 1/2 of '08 with a 19/7 detection window

Golly, you're right!!! The scales have been lifted from my eyes!!! I was blind, but now I see!!! You've definitively proven that Vroemen could not POSSIBLY be a doper!!!

How's that? Feel better?

hold the phone wrote:

For what it's worth (not much, I admit), every steepler on the circuit knew that Vroemen and Damian Kallabis were doped.

It is worth nothing unless you tell us how you know every steepler knew that, or who you are. Otherwise you're just another loud mouthed letsrun loser like me.

Well, to shed a bit of light on Vroemen's "retirement". Although he did retire from running competitively, he never really quit. Instead, he kept training all the time in order to function as a regular pacemaker for Said Shaheen in races. After all, he could make some good money that way after his official career was over. This also explains why he still ran 8.35 in 2007, even though he was "retired". Therefore, it is not THAT difficult to consider him intensifying his training this year and running 8.12 again, since he had run those times several years in a row before 2007.

This is not to say that of course he may have been a cheater all the time. His downplay of the drug's positive effects on long-distance runners is definitely suspicious, since it also increases endurance and decreases recuperation time. The recent positive results for 11 Bulgarian weightlifters for the same substance is also a strong indication that the WADA may have implemented more sensitive tests. Then again, the contamination of steroids in meat is wellknown too....Hmm, it's all very strange.

I would really like to believe Vroemen, but I admit that he is most likely a user. So sad....

ventolin wrote:

Waahhh wrote:Protestations??? Baumann passed a lie detector test as well as a hair analysis (which can trace drug use up to 6 months).

as pointed out - people can pass lie-detector tests

also if hair analysis is supposedly so damn good, why don't wada/authorities ditch their expensively researched urine/blood tests & simply go to a $10 mass spec test on a hair sample ???

besides, the statement that he insisted on having a dope test after running this 8'12 qualifier for 'king, to officialise the clocking, suggests to me that this isn't a doper ( certainly NOT actions of a doper )

Yes, in the movies is you get cool music montage CIA training.....In the real world however....

ventolin wrote:

Waahhh wrote:Protestations??? Baumann passed a lie detector test as well as a hair analysis (which can trace drug use up to 6 months).

as pointed out - people can pass lie-detector tests

also if hair analysis is supposedly so damn good, why don't wada/authorities ditch their expensively researched urine/blood tests & simply go to a $10 mass spec test on a hair sample ???

besides, the statement that he insisted on having a dope test after running this 8'12 qualifier for 'king, to officialise the clocking, suggests to me that this isn't a doper ( certainly NOT actions of a doper )

Yes, in the movies if you get cool music montage CIA training.....In the real world however....

ventolin wrote:

Fast 100 wrote:

Except that Vroemen was "retired" and thus was not being tested.

it's not that simple

iy you "unretire", you usually have to have 1y of random testing before you are allowed to compete again ( perhaps discretion allowed to 1/2 this time )

bottom line is : you do have to have a period of time with random testing after officially coming back before you can compete

it appears vroemen's retirment situation is not clear

where does it say this?

As soon as you fall out of the top 30 in the world the IAAF doesnt require you to keep them informed of your location. Another reason why Ramzi doesnt like to race much, it keeps his ranking out of the top 30 and therefore is subject to less testing.

i gleaned this from the dwayne chambers saga :

the brit fed believed he had "officially" retired in ? '06 & took him off the testing register

however, dwayne denied he had made an unofficial retirement announcement & came back early this year

the fed contested this, believing he had formally retired & their rules ( presumably similar to dutch ) state an athlete returning from an official retirment must undergo 1y of random testing before they are allowed to compete ( to ensure they haven't been doping prior to their return )

unfortunately for fed, the iaaf ( a little surprisingly ! ) ruled in dwayne's favor & said he hadn't ever "officially" retired & for the local fed to take him off their testing books was their mistake & they woud have to live with it - if iaaf had ruled in their favor, dwayne woudn't have been allowed to step on a track 'til late '08 & obviously woudn't have gone to peking

if vromen hadn't officially made a retirment announcement, chances are he was still being randomly tested by (conscientious ) dutch ( NOT the iaaf ) being their leading sc'er - if he hadn't been tested, then dutch fed messed up