Doubling

Dude, capillaries stretch around muscle fibers, in fact around all internal organs, but that doesn't increase the O2 delivery to muscle fibers. What increases O2 delivery is the increase in the number of capillaries in the capillary beds, ie more surface area ie better O2 delivery.

so, you being a year older, or the fitness you gained from the last year had nothing to do with you getting better?

at around 70 which is what you said you run most people advocate 2-4 doubles a week. From there you increase the number of doubles as the mileage increases. So 80-90 where most college runners hang out 3-5. 90-100+ 4-6, it depends on the time of the year and the athlete most of all. YEAH think about how good you would have been with a few more doubles? Better? Worse? You'll never know.

Your logic is flawed too. Your fitness peak is around 30 so every year you got older you naturally got a bit better, and all the training you did the year before has an effect on the training you do the next year.

Doubles allow you to increase your training load while minimizing injury. They're only worth it if your running a certain amount or the double shower, double dressing just isn't worth it.

OP--> think about what you want to do and make plans from there your mileage should taper downwards too. Removing the doubles to create your taper is a great idea!

hmmmm wrote:

OP--> think about what you want to do and make plans from there your mileage should taper downwards too. Removing the doubles to create your taper is a great idea!

I disagree strongly. The most important thing to do is to live like a clock. Do what you've been doing except less. A short 1 1/2 to two mile run the morning of a race is ideal for top performance. The worst thing you can do before a race is alter your schedule.

hmmmm wrote:They're only worth it if your running a certain amount or the double shower, double dressing just isn't worth it.

Neither is true. It's always worth it.

I would say that I agreed with most of what you said but I disagree on the last paragraph! I beleive that the only thing you get rid of at "peaking" time is you reduce the amount you do in the workouts. Cut out the hardest part of the workout which is the second half so that way you dont get too sore or be too tired for race day! The last hard day needs to be about 10 days out from the big one! But you still continue to do everything else as normal. Why change anything that has been working just because someone thinks there will be some magical change that happens during this "peak." This is all coming from Scott Simmons who has shown that he knows how to "peak" his guys right! You may not like the guy personally, but you have to admit he knows his sh**!

Perfect example is Josh McDougal, he only reduced his mileage like 10 to 15 miles from what he was doing for the whole season, which I am guessing was just the amount of miles he was doing in hard stuff! And look at what that kid did this year and has already done! 7:54 I beleive for an opener is pretty damn good, and he is more consistant now instead of all over the place when he "peaked."

maybe I should type what I ment. If you don't plan on any serious racing then double dressing etc isn't worth it. For the general fitness runner it's not worth it. I ran in college and it was worth the extra time then. Now not racing running to keep the weight off

By cutting doubles I mean cutting them down. Just a bit shorter and yes McDougal is running really well... Maybe I should reconsider, but I still think cutting back a few miles. Not alot but a few is worth it. (Personal opinion on that one.)

After being a once a day man for years doing between 50 and 70 miles a week,a month ago I decided to take the plunge and do some doubles. For me this meant adding a morning run of around 3 or 4 miles on some days building up the frequency. I'm now in my 4th week and I'm up to 4 double days. The first couple of weeks were tough and I felt tired all the time but now I'm finding I crave the morning runs and I already feel stronger and fresher than I did when doing around 15-20 miles a week less on one a days. The sessions are going well too and I'm looking forward to seeing what I can do when I start racing again in a couple of weeks time.

I do think twice a day is more bang for you buck, less strain on the body, than running 1x a day. Dr. Martin said that an 8 mile run works on different aspects of fitness than 2x4 mile runs .... anything over 45 mins to Dr. Dave was a vo2 building workout, while under 45 m's was a recovery run. Of course, someone who puts in 100 miles per week, maybe this number is 55 m's .... but you see his point. It is that point of a long run, when you get tired - not tired where you want to stop, but you note that your body is now working at a different rate.

js

I doubled three days a week while in HS (3 to 5 miles in am) and then I doubled 6 days a week while in College (3 to 7 miles in am). Obviously I support doubling. As for tapering I would simply lower your weekly long run by 20 to 30% for the last two weeks and then convert your hard workouts into medium effort workouts for the last 9 days. Your last hard workout should be 10 days out. As for mileage, those adjustments will cut your mileage by some and that is all you need. DO NOT simply cut out your morning runs before a race. It will mess you up. Just do a little less mileage and lower intensity is all.

Oh, for an evening race... I would run a warm up in the am of race day then race in evening.

When it is time to peak, you need to start 3-4 weeks out from the peak date. The mileage will start to cut back, as well as the mileage. In the last 2 weeks, it is the time to sharpen.

Look at the converse of that statement - and relate it to what Dr. Martin said to me: It takes 4 weeks of speed work to turn the corner. Ok, so if I knew this and wanted to peak on 9.1.93 at the World Championships, and I believe I can hold a peak for 4 weeks ... I start my speed work on July 1st. The problem with that, is you are beaten by those that started speed work in April. Case in point: 1993 USATF's Eugene, I placed 3rd at the USA championships; 1993 World Championships Stuttgart, 5th place (only American in the final). An athlete has to choose early in the year, if they want to be sharp, peaking, crushing people in the last 80 meters at the US Championships, or peak at the Olympic Games/Worlds. One can sit in the chair and make state that is an easy decision! Yet, if you put off speed prior to the Trials, you sit at home like I did in 1988 after finishing 4th, and running 3:31.01 on August 31st.

Thoughts for the last 2 weeks before "the race." Do what Seb Coe did - after workouts on the track, don't go for a mile or 1.5 mile warm-down - run 8x100, and then run 800 meters at 6 minute pace = 3 minutes of recovery. That allows you to burn the lactic acid you have accumulated from the workout by running slightly uptempo, and get off the track, and put food in the stomach. Recovery after the workout is paramount - not an extra mile warm-down.

I would use this strategy from 1992-1997, first during workouts leading up to the event, and then, after heats, semi-finals and finals.

Doubles when trying to peak:

1992 - Barcelona Olympic games, lead up:

7.26 S 20 m's am / 30 m's pm, 10x100 (m=minutes)

7.27 M 70 m's

7.28 T 20:45 am / 30 m's pm, 12x100

7.29 W 20 m's am / track workout pm (10.5 miles for the day)

7.30 R 21:30 am / 30 m's pm, 12x100, left shin swollen

7.31 F Track workout at 10am - the first round at Barcelona was going to be at 10am, so went through the process of working out at that time. 800 wd at 6:00 pace. Shin better from icing.

8.1 S Flight from London to Barcelona, up at 630am, flight delayed; 31 m's pm, 12x100; 56.0 miles for the week

8.2 S 2 miles am / church in the Olympic village, 1030-noon; 4 miles pm, 12x100

8.3 M Olympic Games Heat, I raced at 1115am, last heat, 4th place, 3:38.01

2 miles warm-up, 10x100, 1/2 mile wd; 20 m's at night, 10x100

8.4 T 20 m's am / 4 miles, 12x100

8.5 W 30 m's w/ coach Popejoy, 12x100

8.6 R Olympic Games Semi-final, 4th, 3:35.55

2 miles am / 2 miles warm-up, 1/2 mile wd, 8x100

8.7 F 2 miles am / 4.5 miles pm, 12x100

8.8 s Olympic Fianl - 8th place - 3:41.74

1.5 miles am / 2 miles wu, 1.5 miles wd (48.0 miles for the week)

I do believe I was fit, as I ran 3:32.94 in Zurich 10 days later, finishing 4th. I did not apply what I had learned to the Olympic final, and being 32 years old, was not going to out sprint a 20, 21, and 22 year 1500m runners.

js

Mr Spivey, don't bother. "yeah" has a "decade of experience" and a 15:12 5k to back up his talk. Like what do you got, a 3:32 and a 13:15? Geeeesh.

Funny thing is Spivey has some good things to say... unlike you. You've never given any justification for any of your statements, unlike Spivey. You posts are worthless. Someone questioned whether I had experience and I do. Not Jim Spivey experience but neither do you so f*** off. If I did Spivey's training I would not have run 13:15 anyway... and neither would you. I improved by almost a 1:30min. in college in the 5k and 2:00min. in the 10k so I'd say my strategy works. Read one of Spivey's earlier posts. He said 3-7 weeks before peak maybe do 2-3 doubles... that is exactly what I said to do. I never said don't any doubles. You probably thought I did because you apparantly lack even modest comprehension. The fact that you a) don't defend your position and b) had to resort to insults demonstrates your complete lack of any useful knowledge. Spivey doesn't need your help. He at least can explain things. Grow up.

I just want to say "thanks" to world class runners like Malmo and Jim Spivey for participating on the training threads. (And thanks for putting up with some of the silliness.)

I am sure that a lot of readers are interested in what you guys have to say about training, and for good reason. It's a privilege to read what real experts have to say.

Mr. spivey, very interesting stuff. great to see you posting!

this is so awesome, thanks for your reply mr. spivey and to everyone else. the funny thing is my coach just heard jim speak at a coaches clinic in wisconsin. our track training is based around low intense mileage. so i'm going to try this by adding in 4 mile runs 3 days a week. when it gets to the last two weeks i'll try cutting those runs down to just 15 minutes instead of 30. thanks a lot again.

yeah wrote:

He said 3-7 weeks before peak maybe do 2-3 doubles... that is exactly what I said to do. I never said don't any doubles.

Is that really exactly what Spivey said to do? Really? Where did Spivey say to only run 2-3 doubles a week? Where? You haven't posted anything in this thread, except false information, including this bit about McMullen. When cornered you change your tune and say that you've been advocating doubles all along?

yeah wrote:

So if an elite runner is going to run 35 miles a week they are going to double? Most elites are over 100 miles per week. Then it makes sense. We had a few elites train with us in college every now and then and none of them doubled. Including an individual that made the final in the 1500s at worlds.

Your advice got you to 15:12. You should be very proud.

You idiot. Okay... it was actually a post before spivey. My mistake. here is what Spivey said earlier:

"4. I thought 3-4 miles (20-28 minutes) was fine for a morning run. I remember B. Kennedy bumping his mileage up from 5 to 6 in the late 1990's, for a morning run. I think each person has to find the median of running in the morning, and staying healthy. Maybe I should have run 5.226 miles every morning - but if I became injured because now my mileage was nearing 80, it has no point.

If you want to add morning runs, try 2-3 days a week. Either on the recovery days (non-hard workout days) or the morning of the hard workout days. Run 15-20 m's (minutes) and see how it feels."

I dare you. Find a post where I said never to double you moron. Count the number of threads I said I ran 2-3 doubles a week if you can count. I advised not to do it until around 60-65 miles a week. As for Paul, you are just as wrong now as the first time you said it. So now I don't even know the training of people that trained with my team... you are a said individual for sure.

Misinformation? You got plenty of it. Yeah, my advice got me to 15:12 from 20:00 In a few years. Yeah, terrible advice. Get a life. This a non-point to begin with. My college coach was a 15:30 5ker and has gotten people from 16:30 to near 14:00. he also coached a guy from 4:42 in the 1600 to 4:09 in the mile. My coach in hs was an 18:00 5ker and has won conference and regional titles for the last thrity years with typically small teams. Hell, my senior year we had to put a few football players out there to field a team and we won finals. Judge people by their prs? It doesn't matter what your pr is you idiot. Do you honestly think that is an actual point. The reason to train is to improve. How many americans can run 13:15? And are you saying that nobody faster then Spivey can give good advice? It's pathetic. I am certain there are people out there that couldn't break 18:00 that could coach better then Spivey. That isn't a slam on Spivey either. How fast you run has nothing to do your ability to give sound advice. And you can't even explain your position. So please, just let Spivey post... at lest he is devoid of verbal diarrhea.

I decided to follow suit by the way and pick up the willy wonka gimmick.