Masters Speed Question

And if Geb comes on here and starts suggesting some training ideas about the marathon that isn't exactly what Daniels says than he must be wrong too. What the hell would a world record holder know about anything.

I have to agree with the 300m repeats with a 100m walk/jog rest at 1 or 2 seconds better than race pace. That's what got me to do a 4:14 mile in High School and a 4:47 mile at age 45 with very little distance training (no runs over 50 minutes). I'm 5-11 and 154. Every body is different though...

runner39 wrote:

Joe has given me great advice on his website and honestly the man really knows his stuff, I am not saying that the workout SoCal Pete listed isn't a good one but maybe just too much for a 4:53 miler

I don't think that runner39 is saying that Pete doesn't know his stuff. Pete knows what works for him. I, like runner39, believe in Joe Rubio's system. In a nut shell, he works off of a 1:1 ratio for anything 5K or faster, and then shorter recoveries for anything slower (ie. 3 min. @ 10K w/ 2 min. recovery). It works for me, and I'm improving with it.

I think that maybe runner39 meant to say that it was too much for THE 4:53 miler, instead of A 4:53 miler. If the guy is already doing, and presumably maxing out at 8-10 400's @ ~72 w/ 400 recovery, then it might be a bit unrealistic for him to cut it down to 1 min. recovery...at least right away.

Like it was said before..."There's more than one way to San Jose".

Pete was offering some suggestions and he was quick to note that it is NOT a training plan. He is a very careful trainer and is self-coached -- and obviously is doing a heck of a job.

If you *don't* have a coach (and I don't, either), I think you should read and ask questions and try some things and see what works well for you. Certainly only sticking to one kind of "fast" workout, like 400s with equal recovery means you are probably neglecting some other paces you need to develop. Doing faster than race pace, race pace and slower than race pace workouts are all important -- as is sufficient rest days to recover. There are certain principles that will apply to almost all of us -- but there are variances in how we respond and your training should take that into account. As they say, YMMV.

MG

Hey Flip -- are you still running?? Me, too! It would be fun to run into you some day! Your former roommate's former wife. ;-D

You can't take one workout in isolation. Pick up a copy of Daniels' Running Formula or Pfitz/Douglas "Road Racing for Serious Runners" and try to understand the various types of workouts. I think that's what Pete was getting at about a workout as part of the whole. And MG.

That 400 workout comes in 2 varieties in DRF (I don't have it handy). 400 jog = full recovery = Repeat workout, largely for form. Doesn't do anything for VO2. If you do 400s as an interval workout for VO2 max, the rest has to be real short (and pace a little slower than for Repeats) so that you can keep close to the VO2 max range. (Daniels says you normally do longer stuff for VO2 max because of the time (about 3 mins.) that it takes to get to that range).) If I do 400s as intervals, I'll do 16 and do them as 2-minute jobs, i.e., run about 79 (for me, about 4 secs. slower than mile-race pace), rest about 41. That short break (interval) means that doesn't take that long for me to get close to VO2 max., where you get the benefit.

Interesting thread. Since it was started by a masters guy, let's make sure it doesn't deteriorate into sniping and argument, eh? I like this quote here:

Doug E. wrote:"There's more than one way to San Jose".

Many roads to Rome. DRF can get you there. Rubio can get you there. SoCalPete can get you there. I think it's a question of picking one of the better approaches and sticking with that and see if it works for you. Don't try to mix and match - a little bit of Daniels, a dash of Rubio, a peck of Pete Magill...

I agree with what the faster Pete posted - mostly.... I think there's a time and a place for short recoveries, and a time and a place for longer recoveries. In part, this can depend (IMHO) on what kind of runner you are. If you're blessed with natural speed and a good finishing kick, you probably need to keep the workouts more aerobic with shorter recoveries (and the pace to accommodate the shorter recovery). If you're a strength runner, with no kick, you can probably get away with trying the same workout a little harder with longer recoveries. Also, a strength runner would need to spend some more time working on basic speed, with stuff like 6 x 100-150 "all out" with 250 jog (as an example).

The original question that was posed was this:

"I am 42 years old. I have run the mile in 4:53. My speed work consists of alot of qtr's at around 72 - 75 seconds (8 - 10 repeats w/ qtr mile recovery jogs). I would like to try a 6 x 600 meter workout. What kind of times should I be running?"

So he was only asking about pace for a set of 600s, not a general critique of his training approach. I'm in the middle of 800/1500 training for indoors, and over the past couple of months I've done 600s at a couple of different efforts:

8 x 600 w/2:00j (~ 250m) ~2s/lap faster than 3k pace

5 x 600 w/5:00j (~ 800m) ~2s/lap faster than 1500 pace

The first session was quite challenging but not too much. The second session was a little too much for me the day I tried it and I changed it to 2 x 600 w/5:00j + 3 x 400 w/3:30j. The revised session was again challenging, but not too much.

Now I imagine some people might want to jump in and say these sessions are too hard. They probably would be too hard for someone who doesn't spend a lot of time working on aerobic fitness, and logging a decent amount of easy mileage.

A random smattering of other sessions I've done in the past couple of months and in track training last summer include:

6 x 400 w/5:00j @ ~3s faster than 1500 pace

2 x 5k @ ~ HM pace

2 x (5 x 200) w/3:00/10:00j @ ~ 400 pace

2 x (3 x 800) w/2:00/3:00j @ ~ 2s faster than 3k pace

4 x 2000 w/1:45j @ ~ 10k pace

8 x 1200 w/75s j @ ~ 10k pace

10 x 300 w/3:00j @ ~ 1000 pace

3 x (3 x 300) w/60s/5:00j @ ~ 800 pace

2 x 4000 w/2:00j @ ~ 2s/lap slower than HM pace

5k of 200/200 fartlek (~ 5k pace/~ 5k pace + 15-20s/200)

3 x 200 w/400j @ between 400-800 pace + 3 x 100 w/700j @ faster than 400 pace

Plus lots and lots of strong aerobic running (easy runs with ~ 3 miles @ M + 15s/mile), and "lots" (for me) of regular easy running at M+75-90s/mile or slower.

DISCLAIMER: just like the fast Pete said, none of this is a training program, and I would never suggest these sessions would all be useful for anybody. These are just some sessions I have done in track training (I don't specialize at any distance - this indoor season I will have raced 800, 1500, 3000 and 5000), all the while improving (and I'm 42.5).

runner39, et al -

Good grief, I go away from the boards for a day, and look what happens! ;-)

Are Daniels and Rubio wrong? Of course they are! ... No, seriously, that would be absurd. I for one have turned to Joe R. for advice on training plans more than once (or to tell him it's his turn to buy the next round). And both Joe and Daniels are proven coaches in our sport.

But as noted in several posts above, no workout is an island. And workouts must be seen within the full scope of a training plan. The original poster's question appeared to suggest that he had been using his 400s with a 400 jog as his main (if not only) track workout in preparation for fast miling.

I haven't read Daniels in years (decades?). And I haven't discussed this specific workout with Joe. But I'd be willing to bet that neither would advocate 400s with a 400 jog as adequate preparation for racing a 1500 - unless it was accompanied by other workouts that stressed aerobic strength (85%+ VO2 max, mitochondrial development) and anaerobic energy systems. Or unless it was part of a training plan that emphasized lots of racing at all sorts of distances above and below the mile (something Joe and I have personally discussed).

The truth is that a miler needs MANY types of training: from long runs (though not TOO long) at 65% VO2 max, to tempo, to hill repeats (30-90 seconds on hills that aren't too steep, not too gentle ... ala Coe), to racing at distances greater and less than the mile, to repeats of anywhere from 150 meters to 2000 meters ... or more ... or less!

Because the 1500 demands a unique blend of "speed" and strength - one that usually requires a coach's (or a seasoned competitor's) guidance.

Of course, a good friend and training partner of mine once stepped onto the track after nothing but 70 miles of easy distance running a week and ran a 3:43! But see, that's the thing - there is no ONE method. And there are so many variables (race frequency, previous race and training history, genetic ability, etc.) that it's impossible to give the single workout that will lead to success.

All that said: anyone who thinks they can achieve their best in the Mile by running 400 reps at mile pace with a 400 jog is kidding themselves. That goes for elite or non-elite.

Also for the record, I am self-coached, but I've coached numerous athletes, from high school (as a head track and cross-country coach) to elite to weekend jogger. And I would never post/suggest a workout merely because it "worked for me" - that is, I'd never suggest a workout if I didn't know the physiological basis for expecting the workout to generate improvement in the athlete.

Finally, whatever my credentials as a runner (or coach), that shouldn't dissuade anyone from challenging what I post. The second we hit the "Post Message" button, anything we've written is fair game. God knows, the first thought that crossed my mind when I posted yesterday was: well, I should be hearing what an idiot I am before too long.

Okay, good luck to the original poster!

And good luck to everyone else in finding the perfect training program and riding it to successful accomplishment of your race goals!

[quote]SoCal Pete wrote:

And I would never post/suggest a workout merely because it "worked for me" - that is, I'd never suggest a workout if I didn't know the physiological basis for expecting the workout to generate improvement in the athlete.[quote]

SoCal Pete:

I realized that I wrote the "worked for me" remark, but I assure you that was not what I meant. I have too much respect for you to say that.

Doug E. - absolutely no offence taken!

I was clarifying, not complaining.

And I don't mind a good argument one bit - some might even suggest that I provoke them. ;-)

As long as I'm posting again (for the last time today on this thread ... got to go to work), let me add something for the original poster: the workouts I suggested are ones you should work up to - i.e., don't immediately go from your workout to repeats with much less rest ... be patient and gradually reduce the rest interval.

Or don't.

Mostly, enjoy yourself and your peers. That's the main thing for us masters.

SoCal Pete wrote:...let me add something for the original poster: the workouts I suggested are ones you should work up to - i.e., don't immediately go from your workout to repeats with much less rest ... be patient and gradually reduce the rest interval.

While my post was intended to be strictly information, and not advice, I should also note that there was quite a bit of buildup to the two sessions of 600s I mentioned. Personally, I would never try either one of those sessions without having built up to them with shorter work and/or longer rest at the same paces. And both of those sessions could be described as the kind of very hard workout I might see toward the middle or end of a track season, when I'm really ready for it, and not as a first effort.

I'm not even close to being a master (HS runner), but 12-14 X 400 @ goal mile pace (73-75) with 75s rest helped me to get from just under 5 to the mid 4:40s, along with a weekly tempo run of about 20 minutes (3.5 miles or so).

Good input.

On the 600's, try a fast/slow approach. This is a good way to break thru mental barries and actually "fool-yourself" into thinking that the "slow" is a recovery. Explaination: Try 1:48/1:52/1:48/1:52/1:48/1:52. Your 1:48's are at 4:48 mile pace & your 1:52's are slightly slower than race pace. Feels like you are just doing 3 quick ones that way. I often do this with 800's/1k's too.

t

There has been a lot of good discussion here, in spite of a few swipes. But sometimes, that's what makes it fun.

Now while I'm not a miler (especially compared to Socal pete and nwmaster), I like to make a few attempts a year at the distance primarily because the speed is helpful for longer distances.

I do "speedwork lite", which is a sort of a combination of what has been discussed, and have run 4:38-40 in my early 40s, and mid-low 4:50s in my late 40s.

Basically, I train as a 10k runner to marathoner but through the 10k phase I incorporate about one session per week focused on training at about mile speed. These workout are short & sweet and to the point.

Early on I'll shift from a weekly set of 100 m striders and start do something like 5X300, with 200 m jog recovery, starting at about current estimated pace for the mile and working into mile goal pace.

then I'll work to 4X400 with a 400 jog

After two or three weeks of this, I start getting more specific, and will do workouts like 3 X 600 at pace with a 400 jog or 2 X 800 with a 400 jog, and building up to making the long rep to be 1000, 1100, or 1200. I rarely run over 2000 m at mile pace in any single workout. But if you can do 1200 at pace on your own, followed maybe by 2 or 3 X 300 with a 200 recovery, you should be more than ready to run at your goal pace in a competitive situation.

If you are not a miler,why are you trying to give him speed workouts?

%$@ wrote:

If you are not a miler,why are you trying to give him speed workouts?

I could insult you, but there is no need. I was being semi-facetious. I actually focused to run that 4:38, which by performance grading, has been my best effort at any distance. Moreover, as I said I do run a few a year and the traing I describe does work with low risk of injury.

Granted you're a nobody here unless you run 4:20s or faster as a masters, and say that it was easy, but if you look at USATF masters rankings, you'll see that 4:50s does okay for 45-49, and low 5s is pretty solid for 50+.

AK-49 - Your mile time was very, very good for a masters athlete, and you know us masters well enough to know that none of us would knock a peer for their time (because we've learned that's hardly the most important aspect of why we remain competitive at this age!).

So don't let a troll get to you! (FYI, I have in the past, and always regretted it later.)

Try running your 400s with two minutes recovery.

Run your 400s on the 2:30, the rest is too long. Try for 75 seconds or better with = rest. You should feel like you're digging in a little deeper with each rep, try for 10-12. You'll find your recovery days are more beneficial when slogged at a really slow pace if this gets you really tired (training at 40+ is a different animal).

Hmmmm, I'm a sprinter and was about to offer my 2 cents about speed workouts, but I can see this is a totally different type of speed from 100 meter speed!