Running 3:00 marathon off a 1:30 half - Old/Slow guy

Hmm.... wrote:

So is sub 3 too much of a stretch goal?

no

just get used to running 6:45-6:50 pace

do the work, you'll get there

You're way off. You'ld have to work your ass off and have incredible luck and run the fastest course in the world with perfect weather conditions to make it. You're looking at 3:10-3:30 on a good day. Now if you plan a sub-3, 2-3 years down the road you might get it.

Good luck

18 months total time as a runner is nothing, as you know. Your developmental curve shows admirable progress, and suggests that you're a good bet to do it. You probably don't need 70 mpw average, but 60 mpw average for the 12 weeks prior to the race--actually, weeks 14 to 2, followed by a 2 week taper--would be a good idea. Keep hills in the mix for the duration. And learn the difference between marathon pace and half marathon pace.

When I ran 2:53 at 25, I ran a "test" marathon three months earlier at a controlled pace and hit 3:00:30. That time tells you just how controlled I was: I wasn't trying to break 3, just stay comfortable and maintain pace. You might consider something like this. Here's why it was a good idea: the goal of staying comfortable led me to go out in 7:17s for the first 5, then crank it down to 6:45-6:50, which I held the rest of the way. So I learn something crucial with marathons, which is to let the groove come to you rather than pushing too hard too early.

Secondly, the confidence bred by that race--a 6 minute improvement over my PR--led me to step it up in my goal race, knowing that I had mastered the distance per se. I ended up pushing a little too hard in the middle miles and sagging into an almost-wall, so the 2:53 hurt more than it should have. But still: with one solid marathon under my belt, I was prepared to push a little harder, and basically judged the "little" correctly.

Good luck. Keep on growing.

Hmm.... wrote:

OK - so compared to many on this board, I am slow, and old (42), and have only been running 18 months. But I have finally gotten my half marathon time to just under 1:30 which was one of my 2007 goals (best in 2006 was 1:51!!)

Next goal is to run a sub 3 marathon. (I ran a trainwreck marathon last year after 6 months of low/slow miles and crashed at 20 miles dragging my ass home in 4:10)

I have 6 months to train for my marathon (Edinburgh on May 25th).

Currently training about 50MPW, I think I can get up to 70ish without things falling to pieces. Training plan is pretty much a Pfitz 24/70 kind of thing, although I need to watch the speedwork and hills as I've had some achilles issues this summer.

So is sub 3 too much of a stretch goal?

Of course you can! You can do it! If you have a good plan, trrain consistently, stay injury free (big key), and race smart, you can do it!!!

I am just a few years younger than you and started running in 2005. I ran my first marathon without training for it (big mistake). I started training for my first marathon in 1/06. Here is my (Half and Full Marathon) progress. Hopefully this helps inspire you...

11/05 Marathon 4:16:18 (10:10 pace)

2/06 Half Marathon 1:31:19 (6:58 pace)

10/06 Half Marathon 1:25:22 (6:31 pace)

11/06 Marathon 3:16:18 (7:30 pace)

3/07 Half Marathon 1:18:33 (6:00 pace)

4/07 Marathon 2:55:47 (6:43 pace)

9/07 Half Marathon 1:17:43 (5:56 pace)

11/07 Marathon 2:51:57 (6:33 pace)

No problem. To run under 1:30 at forty plus with only a year and a half of running indicates you can go much faster. You just have to be prepared to go through the half at faster than your current PB. A bit of a mental hurdle but in six months you should be well under 1:30 half shape, even if you don't actually do a race to prove that fitness level. Good Luck.

Yep is correct. You need another year or 2 to get there. IF you can.

I'm guessing you can make it in 6 months, but it will be close. Right now, you're probably a 3:10-3:15 guy, so you should train appropriately for that pace. My opinion is that you should go through the Pfitz plan (if that's what you want to use) using 3:05-3:10 goal paces and periodically test (with a 10k, half marathon, or other) to see if you are improving. Or use a HR monitor to gauge your progress on the workouts if you're into that sort of thing. Then slide your goal paces to match your current fitness level. You just might make it under 3hr in time.

Regarding the Achilles, my personal opinion is that speedwork is not strictly necessary for most 3hr-type marathoners. Long runs and tempo runs on reasonably hilly courses should do fine.

You can do it. Try using the Hanson's program where it is all about pacing yourself. Run even splits and you got it. I used their program for my last three marathons and ran even splits for two (within :35 seconds) and a negative split for the third. Good luck!

A sub 3 hour marathon would be very tough, everything would need to fall into place - fast course, you would need to be injury free, running well and have a great race.

My guess is you would be able to pull off a 3:20 if everything went well. last year I ran a 1:36 half in April and then a 3:30 marathon in October. Everything fell into place that day for me.

I also think you are 2 years, maybe 3 away from this goal. You need to be faster than 1:30 to run a sub 3 marathon.

Whatever excuse you have for a 4:10 marathon last year, the reality is you are a 4:10 marathoner until you prove different. I simply do not see you taking off over an hour and 10 minutes off your last time and your half marathon time does not support that you will.

It gets harder and harder to take time off after you run around a 3:30.

I I were you, I would shoot for a BQ, which at your age is 3:20.

Best of luck.

Another "old" guy here (43). You'll have to ignore some of these comments from the young guys who tell you it's not doable. It certainly is, but you will have to work for it. I would keep the mileage high (don't bounce below 70 miles a week and go higher if you are able, but do so gradually). You will want to do a long run of up to 20-22 miles every week for the next 6 months (you won't get there if you are only planning on ending your program at 20-22 miles. I have no idea what your plan calls for. I'd take one rest day (after the long run makes sense). Speed work once a week, but not until you have worked your mileage up. Get the base down and then add the speedwork. Your daily runs in the 8-12 mile range should be running the distance at a pace that will tire you (no slow paced runs here). Finally, train on roads that mimic the race elevation. If the marathon has hills, you'll need to train for them. Good luck.

You can do it. At age 36 I was running a 1:25 half just 4 weeks before my 2:54 marathon, my first sub 3. I was probably right around 1:30 for the half at 6 months out.

I feel what helped me the most was practicing my marathon pace, which for me was 6:40. Just train at your current fitness level and race every 3 or 4 weeks to assess your new fitness level, then train at your new level and repeat.

Include your weekly tempos and some shorter faster-than-marathon-pace stuff once a week and hit your long runs. A 3:00 marathon is not a physical barrier but it is a mental barrier.

No. You can not break 3:00 on May 25th.

A 1:30 Half is equivalent to a 3:09 marathon.

Six months of 70mpw (LSD 8 min miles, not long, loping but quick turnover) from Jan. to June and then up it in July and August and then maybe by Sept. and Oct. you can make your sub 3:00 attempt.

You have to get closer to a 1:25 Half before you're ready for sub 3.

When you get your speed down to 18:12 for 5km or

38:14 for 10km you will be ready.

older and wiser wrote:

You have to get closer to a 1:25 Half before you're ready for sub 3.

When you get your speed down to 18:12 for 5km or

38:14 for 10km you will be ready.

Personally I found sub-18, sub-38, and sub-1:25 much easier than sub-3. Despite getting in the miles, the long runs, and all the other recommended training, the marathon repeatedly kicked my ass.

But you definitely need to be in at least that kind of shape to do it. Given how well you're progressing, you can get there if you stick with it and stay injury-free.

I'm 40 and some of the others are right. You need to be able to knock out a 1:25 or faster 1/2 marathon before you look to break 3.

To quote a good friend of mine, "the second half of the marathon doesn't start until mile 20." The marathon is not simply two 13 mile runs, things happen after mile 18.. bad things.

thanks for all the feedback (and the surprising lack of abuse).

based on this, i think i'm going to train as hard as i can without injury and just see how it goes. i'll base my training off current race performance, try to run 10K/halves every 4-6 weeks and adjust training as necessary. I'm a big believer that long runs are critical so will be doing 16-22 pretty much every sunday.

based on the progress i have made recently, i think i have a shot to get to a 1:25 half by april. that at least gives me a chance to think about going for a sub 3 if race day conditions look good and i'm feeling suitably gung-ho. (VDOT 54 says ~2:59 although I know most people fall about 2 VDOTs short in teh full compared to the half)

but having said all that, i am aware that i am currently probably the slowest marathoner on letsrun, and only 16 minutes faster than oprah, so to get a BQ (3:20) would also be fine with me.

Everyone here has lots of good points. I would agree that you would need to be capable of hitting 1:25+/- for the half before you will go under 3:00 for the full... But, that type of gain could come very quickly (possibly in 6 months) since you are fairly new to running. A new 42 year old (or even older than that) runner is capable of making big and fast gains in endurance.

My best advice? Put your nose to the pavement and give it your best shot. At the very worst you will almost certainly set a nice PR and have a point to work from to make go for it again...

Maybe you could do a half 6 weeks or so before the marathon to see where you are at?

Most importantly... Enjoy the journey! Hopefully you will have many races in your future...

chrisbikeman wrote:

Most importantly... Enjoy the journey! Hopefully you will have many races in your future...

and that is the best point of all.

I'm young but coming back from a layoff I ran a PR of 1:29:4x in the half. Two months later after some 85 mile weeks I ran a 2:59:02 marathon with a 1:29:5x first half and a PR half marathon in the second half.

So yes it is very doable. You have the speed to run sub 1:30 so all you need to do is get the endurance to hold that pace for another 13 miles. Focus on the long runs...do 22+ miles for your weekly long run as often as you can. Get the mileage up over 70...over 80 if you can handle it...and keep it there for as long as possible.

In 1993, when I was 46, I ran my first sub-3:00 marathon (2:59.30); my half marathon PR at the time was 1:29:53 from the previous summer. About 5 weeks before the sub-3, I ran a 1:30.49 half - my log book indicates it was warm and humid. The day of the marathon conditions were perfect (48F, overcast, slight tailwind); I ran a very even pace throughout the race and felt great start to finish. In 1992 my marathon PR was 3:19 on the same course. As long as you are confident in your training and realistic about the conditions, I think you can do it. In the two months before the marathon I ran about 45-65 miles per week including 4 20+ milers and raced almost every week - that was my only speedwork. Most of my weekly mileage was at a 7 to 7:30mpm pace and my long runs were generally around 7:30-8:00mpm. Don't limit yourself - it is possible.