Sub 30 MINUTE 10k guys- your training??

apply same approach for sub 30min

http://www.time-to-run.com/training/10k/

That would be very Hansons looking.

P.S. Great thread.

Not aimed at you individually but schedules in general.

They mean jack shit on their own.

The paces are specific to the athlete in question at any particular time.....lifestyle....what background they are coming off.. what works for each particular athlete...tapering...race preparation.

But take the point that everyones trying to help here .....not knocking anybody ...and interesting thread

Point taken

ghost wrote:

Geoff surprised many people when he became a student at Providence College in the early 80's and did very well there, under the guidance of Bob Amato, at the time, if my memory is correct. He was a bit older than the average freshman but still fit right in, despite some Americans thinking he was a foreigner because of his Liverpudlian accent.

Ummm ... he was a foreigner.

Correction: I meant some Americans thought his native language was not English, as his Liverpudlian accent was so strong at the time....

Ghost in Korea

I guess this is Dave? I joined as a young lad 14 or 15 and wasn't much but loved to run, loved the sport. I joined within a week or so of Brian Currie and remember Chris Dagnall and Dave Hughes as good young runners. Have very fond memories of training under Tom O'Mahoney. Bumped into him from time to time over the years but I'm now in Oz. Try to keep up to date with how well the club is doing and notice Johnny Mellor. Email me and let me know how Tom is doing.

Paul

sorry Dave

Want to bump this thread and also make an observation about it. Basically, when it comes to advice offered for how to break 30 we have two perspectives:

perspective 1: The American sub-30:00 guys who have reported their training schedules. They run around 90-100 mpw, 16-18 miles on the long days, and do 2-3 workouts of solid volume and intensity. about 85% of their training is done at slower than 6:00/mile pace.

perspective 2: The British sub-30:00 guys described by ghost in korea. They run around 35-60 mpw, 10 miles on the long days, 2-3 workouts of reasonable volume and intensity, and rarely run above 6:00 mile pace.

I think this is a pretty accurate representation on training in the US versus the UK. UK runners tend to have busy schedules in terms of work and family, and just fit in short quick runs when they have time. Whereas US runners really make a commitment to the sport.

My personal opinion: the UK guys who break 30:00 are the ones who are exceptionally talented. The ones who aren't talented enough to break it on limited training just resign themselves to being mediocre. Whereas in the US lots of guys break 30:00 just by believing in themselves and their coaches.

Not gonna say which is a better overall philosophy.

Check out www.runnerslife.co.uk

Have just reviewed this old thread again and made another observation. Without exception, every sub-30 runner who has posted his schedule on here only incorporates two of the following three things:

1) mileage over 90/week

2) 3 workouts per week rather than 2

3) a long run at a pace faster than 6:45/mile.

I guess the point is that if you do the long run at any kind of hard effort, then it counts as the third hard day of the week. Unless you're one of those weirdos ghost posts about that gets by on low volume and high quality (nothing against those guys, I just know that would never work for me).

95-100 miles per week in 10 or 11 runs with a long run and two hard workouts per week, periodized to a peak. Longer recovery runs should be easy.

M: 30 minutes am, 60 pm

T: 90

W: 30/60

R: 90

F: 30/60

S: 30/60 or 90

S: 135

joking aside... wrote:

I guess the point is that if you do the long run at any kind of hard effort, then it counts as the third hard day of the week.

Yes, that seems to be the point.

The other point--and I enjoy the very different perspective that Ghost brings to some of these discussions--is that different things work for different people. (I realize I say that a lot.)

I keep thinking back to Zatopek, who at one point did 60x400 w/200j, every day for a week and a half. But God is in the details: Z's workout was on a loop in the woods, not on a track, and the distances were approximate; the 400's were maybe around 80sec pace, but the 200's only slowed down to around 45sec. In other words, Z was doing ~36km of change-of-pace running, at good to quality effort, on a daily basis, with a weekly volume of ~250km (= ~150mi). Whaddya know, he was better than everybody else at the time, and could race 20,000m at a pace only a couple other guys could sustain for 10,000.

In other words, he found a mix of volume and quality that fit his physiology and appealed to his temperament.

Wonderful thread, BTW. Many thanks to the OP's simple and thought-provoking quest, and to the many sub-30:00 men who've weighed in. This is the kind of discussion that makes letsrun.com so valuable.

there is definitely a letsrun bias towards high mileage. i would be an exception. i ran 30:14 in my first (and one of two total) 10k (and had a training partner who has done 30:11), so i obviously did not break 30 so ignore me if you like. BUT, my highest week in those days (late 90s) was 71 and i averaged 55-60 for outdoor track. i ran 5-6xmile in 4:50s down to 4:40s for about 5 weeks total (with lighter replacement workouts for recovery) also did 12-16x400s with a minute rest at 66-67, sometimes faster. tempo sat (or race) 13-14 on sunday. i was unable to handle the high mileage til my mid twenties.

my training partner averaged around 70 with one day off a week for yoga and did a hard workout wed and a hard long run of 18-22 miles on the weekend (5:30-6:00). his hard workouts were HARD, like 1000s in 2:57-3:01 with 90s rest to start, cutting down to 30s at rep 5, then back up to 90s by rep 10. (cutting or adding 10-15 sec per rep)

so there are two workout schedules that are a little different than the norm. i would say that we both could have run faster with better races, but don't feel like you have to be in the letrun box of 100mpw, blah blah blah...not everyone will respond to that the same way. i am a believer in volume, but not before someone is physically and mentally mature enough to handle it. hitting the times in the hard workouts and making sure you have a focused, short recovery is the single most important indicator of ability to run fast, IMHO.

You probably would of run mid to low 29s have you done more mileage.

A mideast coach wrote:

You probably would of run mid to low 29s have you done more mileage.

yeah, i am currently trying to rectify that mistake. late twenties now, haven't raced on track since college, but i will be out there this spring, looking for those very times to get that monkey off my back. and because i freaking love this sport. i will let you know how it goes.

OK coach. Here is a runner with a best of 30.20 hoping to break 30.

He was a good junior runner in regional Victoria/Australia, but not outstanding -around 4.10 for 1500m at age 18 and just under 16 for 5k. At that time he was running about 60-80km per week.

He didn't obtain higher enough VCE (year 12) scores to get a place in Uni. Instead he did some training courses and got a job as a storeman. From 19-23 he ran quite seriously -(4.00,1500 14.40 5k 30.20 10k) -up to 160km some weeks but was not as consistent in his approach as he probably needed to be. Parties, working overtime etc.

He went off over to Europe backpacking for 12 months 23-24 years of age. He trained only sporadically during this time. He came back home and started training fairly seriously but was now in a serious relationship and by age 26 was married with a child. He continued to train and race quite well -15/31m. Now at 28 he is more focused and believes he still can run sub 30 min.

He now has a 2d child. He works as a supervising storeman from 8-5 with a 30min lunch break- he has to remain onsite at lunchtime. He leaves for work at 7am and returns at 6pm.

On Tuesday his wife heads off to play basketball at 7pm and returns late. On Thursday they attend a community dinner as a family until about 9pm. His wife works from 7 until late at the local pub on Friday night.

He lives in a small town of 2000 people with no track. The nearest track is 60km away as are his nearest running partners. He lives in this town because he was able to afford to buy a house here, much cheaper than in the regional city area. He has a mortgage and a car loan and sails close to the wind financially -he can't afford luxuries like a treadmill. Of course there is no gym nearby either.

His wife expects him to eat meals with her and the kids and to help out with household duties once he is home from work.

Improving to sub 30 mins will offer him no real financial rewards. Even 28min runners would struggle to make much money in Australia.

Luxuries like massage and sports medicine are not readily available to him. A physio visits the town once per week. He can access some of these things in the regional city where he works but is not something he can easily do routinely.

So he basically can train in the morning until 6.30 during the week. On Mondays, Wednesdays and Thursdays it may occassionally be possible for him to head out the door for a run about 9-9.30pm. He is on his feet most of the day and does quite demanding physical work.

Most Saturday mornings he works from 8-12/1pm. He races probably 2 out of 3 Saturdays (afternoons and mostly near his place of work) throughout most of the year.

Sundays he usually runs early and then spends the rest of his day either involved in family activities or doing the many chores around the house and yard.

His current training is usually 45mins -1 hour each weekday morning. He tries to incorporate some fartlek once or twice per week. Usually a race or fast session on Saturday afternoonn He goes long 100mins to 2 hours in the hills Sunday. Family situations such as sick child means he sometimes will miss a morning run. He will sometimes run for 30mins easy in the evening if it is practical.

His weekly totals are normally around 100 up to a max of 120km per week.

What would you suggest he do to improve that 6secs per km?

Best training for sub 30 - find a fast set of parents. Sub 30 is close to the zone that requires very good genetics. I was one of several sub 31 guys on my college team - I believe I hit my limit at the age of 25 with a 30:50 - even the most intelligent training wasn't getting me to sub 30.

If I were in his place and thought that running more might get me under 30 I suppose I might think about trying to have a short nap while my wife's out and getting in a second run before bed. But that might seem a bit much.

Could he run to work and back? Or could he drive to 10-12 km from work and run back and forth from the car?

If not, his best bet might be to do what he's doing and wait a few years. His kids will be old enough to leave alone while he runs even if his wife is out.

But within the context of his current constraints I'd suggest a couple of possibilities. One is that if he's racing two weeks out of three and doing two fartlek sessions a week he might be doing too much anaerobic running depending on how demanding the fartleks are. Maybe he should only do one in a week.

The other suggestion would be to do a Lydiard style approach even at his current level of mileage. Spend 10 weeks at the high end of his range, make the long runs at or a bit beyond the two hour range and don't race, then do a hill phase for 4-6 weeks, then reintroduce the fartleks and races.

Even though I've always been a high mileage advocate, I really admire guys like this and wish him well.