Isn't "Event Specificity" More Important Than "VO2max" And "LT" Zones And All That?

Skuj,

IMHO those workouts you listed can be used to predict marathon performances, but are not very accurate. The problem of course being the fact that the marathon is that critical distance (over 20 miles) and glycogen storage becomes such a big issue....its hard to predict how fast you can go in the last 10k. Its too demanding of a race to simulate with very specific workouts (compared to 5k-10k) on a weekly basis.

I like to look at Hanson's session of 2 by 6 miles at 5-10 sec/mile faster than goal marathon race pace, with a 5-10min rest between. Do that under control and on a road course comparable to the marathon course you are racing and you might get some idea of what you can handle.

Then again, the long run is what I consider the most specific workout to the marathon. So if you do a 22 miler at the end of the highest mileage week of your life (already starting off tired) and can close the last 10 miles or so close to a marathon goal pace you simulate some of the pain and demands of racing the full distance. Hall did some long MP runs, but he also changed up his long runs, closed really fast, and did a variety of other workouts.

Closing long runs strong and fast at the end of high mileage weeks is definitely the best simulation of marathon conditions- if you don't want to run anything longer than 20-22 miles. And back to examples- I think Derek Clayton simply took Peters' basic work ethic (many fast runs) and simply piled on more mileage- he still ran most of it fairly fast, and like Peters was rewarded with impressive blocks of time off the WR.

Peter wrote:

Hi Marius:

Here is a link to a more recent article by Jones about Paula Radcliffe. It has data up to 2003, I believe.

http://www.athleticscoaching.ca/UserFiles/File/Sport%20Science/Theory%20&%20Methodology/Endurance/General%20Concepts/Jones%20Physiology%20Womens%20WR%20Holder%20Marathon.pdf

Hope your studies are going well.

Fascinating Study, Peter. Thanks.

Back to Event Specificity, I recall this: Mike Boit - mostly doing intervals of 200s, 300s, 400s at race pace. Rarely doing anything else. When moving up to the 1500m/Mile, he hesitated: "Oh boy, I don't know about 4 lappers..." He chased Coe and set an African record 3:49 in 1981.

Does anyone have more info on Boit? My foggy memory has him being very "specific" in his training for the 1500m/Mile.

Outlook: After we (hopefully) discuss Boit, I'd like to move on to Roger Bannister and "Event Specificity". :)

We need Bomba on here. No training discussion instigated by Skuj is complete w/out some interjections by Bomba.

Haha. By way of "bumping", if Bomba reads this...I was on the lookout for him in Penticton. He won the 5k on Thursday night.

I was able to test Mike several times in the mid 1980's. Based on my tests his strengths were great running economy and a high threshold. I do remember he used to do some pretty tough hill training. Mike was a very pleasant guy, and may have had a great shot at Gold in '76, but the Kenyan's didn't compete

He ran very well for a remarkably long time. Missed 1980 too! :(

Pete

Intersting article about Paula Radcliffe. But my point is this. Beyond the test and the relate performance impovement that Paula did in most of the events from 3000m up to the marathon we need to understand what kind of training she did during that period the data refers.

Since young girl that Paula often trains up to the hexaustion wich means as fast as she is able. In page 13 of her autobiographic book Paula – my Story So Far you may read this (about her early years, remember that Paula did start training and competing at 11 years old) (...) My favourite runs were with dad in Delamer forest (...) Then Dad would come along and I would run with him for as long as i could, It seemed to me we ran a long way togheter before hexaustion overtook me.

My comment is this one. It seems to me that going up to hexaustion that´s not LT pace precisely.

Later on when she grow up and she did study in the Longborough University. She used to go and train with the men team running group on their daily runs and she tries to run so hard that some tesimonies said she ended those runs so hexausted she splited blood so hard were those runs for him. It seems to me that this type of training she did its distant from LT run pace.

Early on this same thread i did post a resume of few workouts she did and that reveals she is nothing but a training animal, she is able to resist to a training menu with lots of mileage, long runs, race pace intervals, hard fartleks that no serious expert may consider that her main training task are LT runs. On Paula schedule at some point she says (...)"I rest every eighth day," she adds. "And I mean complete rest. If I don't, I just can't handle it all.(...)

She trains so hard that she cant resist to a week micro-cycle witout a day rest.

After read the interesting article about Paula that you post the site adress my opinion still remains the same. She had that test data and she did improves their performances but not just based in LTt runs mainly. She does some LT training but she also does train frequently on other training zones that is considered VO2 and Specific zones in a weekly basis that no one can take the conclusion that both – the perfomances and the test data – are simply the result of her strong LT training. Why isnt the result to their frequent training up to the hexaustion or race pace workouts as well ?

Finnaly i guess that the famous sentence that jtupper once said – more or less like this - “there are a type of training thats to throw up the eggs against the wall and it happens that one or another willnt break”. I guess that Paula thats that exception - the egg that can resist to that huge training intensity far beyond the LT training.

Date Pace; Goal Pace. Improve using the pace from where you are. Too much anaerobic will produce short term gain , but long term decline. Aerobic threshold , consistently will improve the aerobic level. Mileage will improve the ability to do more aerobic threshold work. Anaerobic once in a while, Pace is only as fast as your level. Goal pace may be a long way away. Date pace may be better to work with. Slow but steady. Goal pace will become real, but be patient.Mileage also, be patient and back off from time to time to let the the body adapt. The ability to race fast is in time, not tomorrow or next week. Think of gains over 1 or 2 years and event specificity will manifest from what you are producing in practice. Good Luck to all!! O and have fun, stay inspired, stay able to adapt. Without that, nothing will get done. Last thing - Take breaks every year, 3 weeks to 6 weeks.

I want to explain my training phylosophy, and the idea at the base of it, without speaking too much about physiological principles.

1.

In my opinion, TALENT is the speed, related with a specific distance. In other words, the winner is, for every distance, THE FASTER AMONG ATHLETES WITH THE SAME ENDURANCE. This is very different from THE MORE RESISTANT AMONG WHO HAVE THE SAME SPEED, because when I look for building a champion, I start to investigate the endurance of an athlete, not his speed. So, for example, I can define groups of athletes having NATURALLY good SPECIFIC QUALITY OF ENDURANCE for different distances, and after I try to develop their SPECIFIC SPEED.

2.

For doing this, when I look for young athletes, I put them in competitions in 3 different distances, creating groups related with their most evident qualities :

a) 400 / 800 / 1500

b) 800 / 1500 / 5000

c) 3000 / 5000 / 10000

d) 5000 / 10000 / HM

3.

From the first group I can find specialists of 800, deciding that can be FAST TYPE or RESISTANT TYPE. In the first case, they can stay for 3-4 years in 400 / 800, in the second in 800 / 1500. Only after 3-4 years, we can move the athlete of the second group to 1500 / 3000 and/or steeple, while the first group NEVER (normally) can move to 1500.

From the second group, I look for specialists of steeple and 5000. Also in this case, they can move to 10000 after 2-3 years, somebody arriving after 6-7 years to Marathon too.

From the third group, I look for specialists of 5000 and 10000. In this case, already after 1 year they can run HM, but can move to the full distance in the period of 4 years.

From the fourth group, we take new Marathon runners, preparing them to the full distance in less than 2 years.

4.

In every group, I go, at the beginning, to develope their SPEED ENDURANCE, working on the 2 shortest distances. If, for example, I have 3 athletes running 3'39" in 1500m, but with different basic speed (a : 50" - 1'50" - 3'39") (b : 49" - 1'48" - 3'39") (c : 48" - 1'46"5 - 3'39"), I plan immediately a future of 10000m for a), 5000 for b) and 1500 for c), using a strategy of 4 years for the final event.

In the case of a), the different speed for 400 / 800 / 1500 are 12.5 / 13.75 / 14.60. This means that the athlete run 800 at 90% of his speed of 400, and 1500 at 93.5% of his speed of 800. I can suppose that he can run 3000m at 95% of his speed of 1500m (15"33 every 100m = 2'33"3 every 1000m = 7'40" in 3000) in one year, and 5000 at 98% of his speed of 3000 (15"64 every 100m = 2'36"4 / km = 13'02").

Practically speaking, I identify, from the beginning, the above speeds as the key for developing his SPEED ENDURANCE for building his best possible performance :

a) SPEED of 12.5 for distances between 100 and 300m

b) SPEED of 13.7 for distances between 400 and 600m

c) SPEED of 14.6 for distances between 800 and 1200m

d) SPEED of 15.3 for distances between 800 and 2000m

e) SPEED of 15.6 for distances between 1000 and 3000m

The goal of training is very simple : TO EXTEND THE ABILITY OF DURATION AT EVERY SPECIFIC SPEED.

Of course, for doing this, we use a combined system :

1) Increase of global volume at the same speed

2) Extension of the length of the distances that we use, at the same speed

3) Reduction of recovery times for same speed and distance

The combined action of this phylosophy with the different speed of Specific Training can change the physiology of the athlete, that becomes able to run with a higher level of lactate in his fibres, to remove lactate faster from his fibers, and to enhance the ability in storage of lactic acid in his muscles. THIS IS SPECIFIC ENDURANCE FOR EVERY EVENT.

5.

As we have to "motors", one MECHANICAL (our muscles, like tha body of a car) and another METHABOLIC (the engine of the car), we have to take care of both of them. But in short distances we can perform looking at 90% for the MECHANICAL motor, in Marathon at 90% for the METHABOLIC engine. This doesn't mean that we don't have to take care of both the situations, but we cannot use the 80% of our time for training the less important quality for the chosen event. Of course, it's very good to eat a cake with a cherry, when you are hungry : but if you eat the cake without cherry you can, in any case, to satisfy your necessity of food, instead if you eat the cherry without cake you are hungry like before.

In other words, the focus in training is to work for exalting the main qualities of an athlete, using few time for trying to reduce the "holes", and not the contrary.

6.

In any event of athletics, speaking about running, we can obtain results for two reasons :

a) Natural Talent, that, with different expressions, can be identified in SPECIFIC SPEED

b) Training, that is the ability to extend the duration of your natural talent.

An example, speaking about the shortest distance of Track and Field (100m) :

Ben Johnson (for this example is not important if he used drugs or not) at 18 years ran 10.80, at 28 in 9.79.

This means that, if the 2 Ben Johnson could run together, the 28 old arrives to the finish 11m ahead.

But, if we go to see their time at 50m, we can see 5"70 when he was 18, 5"48 when was 28. The difference, in meters, is about 2.5m, that in 50m is 5%.

So, looking at the full distance, we can see that :

18y : 5"70 + 5"10

28y : 5"48 + 4"31

This means that Ben Johnson, in 10 years of training, was able to earn 2.50m during the first 50m (improvement 5%), and 8.50m during the second 50m (improvement 17%).

So, 5% is the increase of SPEED, 17% the increase of SPEED ENDURANCE.

This is an extreme example, and who is sick of Mathematics can find, of sure, some mistake in my numbers. But it's enough for showing that, IN ALL RUNNING EVENTS, you cannot improve very much your SPEED, that is highly connected with your Natural Talent, but you must work for improving in SPEED ENDURANCE, that is more connected with training.

7.

At the end, I want to remember that EVERY TEST CAN GIVE A STATIC PICTURE OF THE ATHLETE IN THE MOMENT OF THE TEST, but is useless if we don't use it in a DYNAMIC strategy having the final goal to change the qualities of the athlete. So, I WANT TO BUILD THE SPECIFIC ABILITY IN ENDURANCE OF ONE ATHLETE, not depending on what he is able to do at the moment. And, when I extend the ability in duration for the same speed, I provoke some physiological change that makes the athletes different from before.

So, I cannot depend on the current attitudes of one athlete, but I go to explore new attitudes. Top athletes, as top coaches, are EXPLORERS in a land that don't know. If you fear to try something new, NEVER you can give to your body and your mind the stimula for improving.

So, when I read a lot of discussion about VO2 max, Thresholds, Lactate, I understand that the main problem in the evolution of white athletes is THAT ATHLETICS, IN OUR COUNTRIES, BECAME LIKE MATHEMATICS : a lot of scientists, but no more instinct and no more heart. Athletes that want to control everything CANNOT OVERTAKE THEIR CURRENT LIMITS, and you can have stgimula in two directions only : OR YOU RUN FASTER, OR YOU RUN LONGER. The best thing is to do both the things.

If in the race you want to run fast, in training you have to run fast (of course having care of your recovery).

If in the race you have to run long distance, in training you have to run long distance.

But, if you want to be competitive, YOU HAVE TO RUN LONG AND FAST at the same time, not only long-slow, and short-fast.@@

Wow. Thank you, Renato. Lot's to digest and ponder there.

Thank you very much Renato. This is a absolutely best explanation off your training methodology which I ever read.

It´s sound very much like a methodology of australien swim coach John Carew (coach of kieren perkins and many others great australian distance swimmers).

"TO EXTEND THE ABILITY OF DURATION AT EVERY SPECIFIC SPEED"

What time interval do you look at to judge performance gain? 2 weeks, 1 month,etc.. Also, I realize setbacks in performance happen as a result of say over training, sickness. At what point would you reevaluate training or rest if the performance gains are not happening at the time intervals that you look at?

Thanks Renato, great post!

Could you talk a little more about training the "fast" 800 type compared to training the "resistant" 800 type?

Thank you!

Peter

Is this a kind of a joke ? Why do you ask these questions ? Read your early post and the answers to your questions are there and dont forget last thing. To take breaks every year, 3 weeks to 6 weeks...

Bowerman Man of Oregon wrote:

"TO EXTEND THE ABILITY OF DURATION AT EVERY SPECIFIC SPEED"

What time interval do you look at to judge performance gain? 2 weeks, 1 month,etc..

Date Pace; Goal Pace. Improve using the pace from where you are. Too much anaerobic will produce short term gain , but long term decline.

Also, I realize setbacks in performance happen as a result of say over training, sickness. At what point would you reevaluate training or rest if the performance gains are not happening at the time intervals that you look at?

Aerobic threshold , consistently will improve the aerobic level. Mileage will improve the ability to do more aerobic threshold work. Anaerobic once in a while, Pace is only as fast as your level. Goal pace may be a long way away. Date pace may be better to work with. Slow but steady. Goal pace will become real, but be patient.Mileage also, be patient and back off from time to time to let the the body adapt. The ability to race fast is in time, not tomorrow or next week. Think of gains over 1 or 2 years and event specificity will manifest from what you are producing in practice. Good Luck to all!! O and have fun, stay inspired, stay able to adapt. Without that, nothing will get done.

Not a joke. My earlier post speaks in generalities. I believe a break of 2 weeks to 3 weeks as a general standard of practice is good. The other content also remains my belief.

My question relates more specifically to improvement in time and measuring as such. Sometimes there are times where improvement is positive and sometimes it gets worse.

On a day to day basis, naturally there will be a standard deviation in performance; however I ask what is a good measure of time to indicate progress.

If progress isn't being realized, perhaps there is something happening, illness, training method,etc. that needs evaluation. My curiosity is in how long the time frame to make such a judgment.

I am obviously not communicating effectively if my question seems answered by my previous post. This was not my intent.

boom, Renato, et al.....

Is it true that many of the world's very best middle/long distance runners do indeed take 2-4 weeks off every year? And I don't mean 2-4 weeks of jogging or cross training or some other "fitness" activity, but 2-4 weeks OFF. HOLIDAY. REST.

I don't believe that the top North American runners, in general, are willing to do this. But perhaps this is all a generalisation / misunderstanding on my part.

African runners, normally, take more long periods of complete rest after their season. Their problem is that, sometime, this period is TOO LONG and comes DURING the season too (when they already have won money enough....).

One of the most important differences between white runners and African runners is the importance that they give to their recovery. For an African, basically thinking that he wins because strong, to have the NERVOUS TANK completely full is very important. Also during the track season, before every competition, they don't care if lose some training session. The most important thing is to be mentally and physically FRESH.

I give you an example : SERGEY LEBID, before every meeting, after a long flight, has to go running 30-40 min very slowly, in order to feel more relaxed and to "discharge" his legs, also if arrives to the Hotel at 2:00 by night. A Kenyan, instead, prefers to sleep for 24 hours.

This is because they, more instinctive, are able to appreciate the difference between being full of energies or to be tired, more than an athlete having big continuity in his training.

All their activity, and their life, is more modulated than the activity and the life of an European or an American.

In their training, there is verfy high intensity, so there is also very low intensity for recovering.

In the training of many Europeans, the quality is squeezed because, in many cases, the focus is high, continuous volume.

This doesn't mean that the volume in training for a Kenyan must be low, but that there is a big modulation.

Two example, for a European system and a Kenyan system, for a specialist of 10000 :

EUROPEAN

Monday : Two sessions of 1 hr at 3'30" (17 + 17 = 34k)

Tuesday : 10 x 1000 in 2'48" rec. 200m in 1'30" in the

morning, 45' moderate in the afternoon

(15 + 12 = 27k)

Wed : 1 hr easy fartlek (M) and 1 hr at 3'40" (A)

(17 + 16 = 33k)

Thu : 40' easy + 10 x 100m sprint uphill (M) and 1 hr at

3'40" (A) (11 + 16 = 27k)

Fri : 10 x 600 in 1'35" rec. 200m in 1'15" + 10 x 400 in

62" rec. 1' (M) and 50' easy (A) (16 + 13 = 29k)

Sat : 1 hr moderate (M) and 50' easy (A) (16 + 13 = 29k)

Sun : 25 km progressive run from 3'45" to 3'10"

Weekly mileage : 204 km

Fastest speed : 62" for 400m

Slowest speed : 3'45" per km in easy run

KENYAN / AFRICAN

Mon : 1 hr 20' at 3'20" (M) and 1 hr at 4'15" (A)

(24 + 14 = 38k)

Tue : 10 x 1000 in 2'40" rec. 2' / 2'30" (M) and 45' easy

(A) (15 + 10 = 25k)

Wed ; 1 hr 15' short fartlek with fast tests of 1'

recovering 1' very slow (M) and 50' at 4'15"

(20 + 12 = 32k)

Thu ; 30' easy + 10 x 80m sprint uphill + 20' very easy

(M) and 50' progressive running (A) (13 + 14 = 27k)

Fri : 10 x 600 in 1'30" rec. 2'30" + 10 x 400 in 57" rec.

1'30" (M) and 45' very easy (A) (16 + 10 = 26k)

Sat : 1 hr at 4' (M) + 1 hr with easy and short variations

of speed (A) (15 + 15 = 30k)

Sun : 25 km from 4' to 2'50" per km

Weekly mileage : 203 km

Fastest speed : 57" for 400m

Slowest speed : 4'15" per km during rigeneration run

I learnt, from African runners, that NEVER a top athlete has to forget the intensity for long time, and that, for being able to use a correct intensity, your body must be FRESH.

They learnt, from my training, that the continuity in training is an important factor for developing their main qualities.

So, basically now I use high volume with big modulation (for example, one day long moderate, next day short intervals, next day long fast, next day regeneration, next day long intervals, next day very long moderate, next day circuits for strength endurance, next day easy, again easy, then a special block of intensity, etc.....).

The final goal is to make able the athlete to increase his SPECIFIC TRAINING. How I explained before, BECAUSE EVERY ATHLETE HAS ALREADY SPEED ENOUGH FOR RUNNING FASTER THAN HIS PB, my goal is to INCREASE THE LENGTH OF TESTS AT THE SAME SPEED, or THE GENERAL VOLUME OF THE TESTS AT THE SAME SPEED, or TO REDUCE THE RECOVEY TIME AT THE SAME SPEED. In any case, thru the combination of these factors, my focus is to improve the SPECIFIC ENDURANCE of an athlete.

SPEED is correlated with STRENGTH, and is part of the MECHANICAL motor. I work in that direction for all the season, not for increasing these qualities (may be a little at the beginning of the season, depending of the personal attitude of everybody), but for making the athletes able to use, for longer time, a high percentage of them.

The fact that many athletes need a period of total rest, is not something we discover with African runners.

In the past, for example, the top specialists of 400m and 400 HS from GBR had long periods of rest after the season. I remember Alan Pascoe, that had a very tough period of training in Formia before European Ch. 1974. He was out of shape when in Italy, and worked very hard, without recovery, for 3 weeks. One week before the beginning of ECh in Rome, we had Formia meeting, and he ran 400m flat together with Jenkins an d my Italian runners (I was responsible of 400m in Italy at that time). Jenkins won with 45.3, Pascoe ran 47.8 with the Italian Cellerino. After the race, he told me "now I know that I go to win ECh in hurdles". In my mind, I thought that he had to run the same time with hurdles, and that he was a little bit presumptuos. In Rome, he ran something like 50"20 in the heats, not easy ; 49"50 about in SF, not easy ; and win the final with 48"59, beating Nallet, more easy. Soon after the race, he decided to go for holidays almost 3 months. "Holidays are holidays", he said, "I need to recovery my nervous energies".

So, the equation is easy : more intensity you are able to do, more rest you need. Little rest, little intensity. Little intensity, bad result.