Isn't "Event Specificity" More Important Than "VO2max" And "LT" Zones And All That?

Hi Skuj

I'v been coaching since 1991. I'm a firm believer in the value of training at different speeds - basically using ideas from Frank Horwill's 5-pace theory.

In particular, I value the sessions at, or just faster than, target race pace. These practice the feel and rhythm of the target pace, getting the athlete used the sensations involved. The rhythm of a race is so important to successful performances. As an example, Tim Benjamin put his recent improvements down to getting his rhythm for the 400m race back.

Is it more important than other sessions? Difficult to say. It is certainly a key element but only one piece of a complex jigsaw which varies individual by individual.

md

Just run.

Just run. wrote:

Just run.

Can´t you come up with something more intelligent?

burgare wrote:

Can´t you come up with something more intelligent?

Can't you stop posting under different handles?

burgare wrote:

Just run. wrote:

Just run.

Can´t you come up with something more intelligent?

Just run, then walk, then just run again. Rest and repeat.

Run hard until out of breath. Rest and repeat. really, 3000m pace-10km pace is all hard running. 12km pace to marathon pace is slightly less hard. Easy running pace is easy. Do a bunch of running at these paces. Keep it simple.

Depends on what event you are training for, and what your natural talents are.

Current 5k goal/race pace is usually very close to V02max velocity....so if your main event is the 5k you'll do workouts around that pace all the time and they would be pretty specific.

Going off of the 5-pace theory (which I think is good) you would do some Economy or rep workout a couple notches faster then that....so maybe a session of 16 by 400 at 3k pace or faster.

Then going faster, you'd maybe do some all-out alactic sprints and/or some 200s at 1500m race pace do work on a little lactic tolerance.

On the slower side of 5k pace you'd have your "Tempo/Threshold" pace which is about 15k race pace. Go slower than that and you'd have your Easy day/Recovery/long run pace.

But then again, if you were training for the marathon-you'd have to look at this slower range of paces.....the paces from half-marathon race pace to a slow jog pace. You would put in a ton of miles at a pace that is perhaps in-between zones...say marathon pace + 30-40 sec/mile. Not really easy, but just a steady effort. What is that callled and what does it do for you? I think it gives you more bang for your buck in terms of building endurance...but thats for the marathoner.

Now, if you are targeting the 10k you are looking to have your LT and your V02max trained the best. Running 1600m repeats at 10k pace would be specific, but it is not as hard or as much of a v02max stimulis as running the 1600m repeats at 5k-8k race pace. Running the 1600m at 10k pace would also be on the hard side of "cruise interval" types of workouts and thus would not be optimal for training your LT.

I think that it all comes down to knowing your body and being able to feel these zones. I mean, how often do you race the 10k or 5k and know exactly what your current race paces are for that distance? How do you know what pace to go on some days you feel like crap and maybe your LT is 5-10sec/mile slower than what was projected by Daniels Distance Running Formula chart/table of VDOT values?

So in the end you could throw most of the science out- but only if you have an idea of why you are doing workouts at AROUND race pace, faster than race pace, and slower than race pace.

Great post, Canaday, and I couldn't agree more with the first sentence.

I'm seeing a lot of Road Runners on the Phitz program doing VO2 max, LT and easy running ONLY. Where's the MP? Where's the 10k pace stuff? I'm not saying Phitz is bad. It's a good book. But has something been overlooked in the recent gravitation towards these "physiological" sessions?

"physiological" sessions?

What is that supposed to mean Skuj?

?????? wrote:

"physiological" sessions?

What is that supposed to mean Skuj?

Sessions based mostly on "events" in our bodies....ie LT explores the pace at which Lactate just begins to rise more rapidly, VO2 max is done at the pace which is just below being "anaerobic" in nature. Coe/Martin defined/used 4 zones which are based upon what our bodies primarily do at the various paces.

I don't really know jack sh!t about this topic, but it seems to me that you would work the body systems paces through the bulk of your training and then transition to specificity training in the last month or two before you goal event.

Far out from your event, you want to work the systems that will make you a better distance runner at all distances. Then as your goal race approaches, your comfort and familiarity with the goal pace becomes more important.

Does that make sense? Like I said, this is just an idea I'm throwing out there that might be completely wrong, but will hopefully prompt some discussion.

Just do what the Kenyans do.

Kenyan Training Principles:

http://www.mariusbakken.com/index.php?parent=13&groupid=15

Physiology of a Top Kenyan Runner (why they're fast):

http://www.mariusbakken.com/index.php?parent=13&groupid=19

Training of Young Kenyan Runners:

http://www.mariusbakken.com/index.php?parent=13&groupid=17

Skuj wrote:

VO2 max is done at the pace which is just below being "anaerobic" in nature.

I don't think most coaches would agree with this defintion. VO2max workouts are done at near 100% vVO2max which is well within the anaerobic zone.

great thread, well done skuj, while letsrun is mostly entertainment and news for me, today i'm thinking critically about training and it feels good

What is 110% Vo2 max pace? Or 90%? The lines are fuzzy of course, but, beyond 100% Vo2 max is beyond "aerobic capacity".

Coach K wrote:

Skuj wrote:

VO2 max is done at the pace which is just below being "anaerobic" in nature.

I don't think most coaches would agree with this defintion. VO2max workouts are done at near 100% vVO2max which is well within the anaerobic zone.

UsedToBeKnowItAll wrote:

I don't really know jack sh!t about this topic, but it seems to me that you would work the body systems paces through the bulk of your training and then transition to specificity training in the last month or two before you goal event.

Far out from your event, you want to work the systems that will make you a better distance runner at all distances. Then as your goal race approaches, your comfort and familiarity with the goal pace becomes more important.

Does that make sense? Like I said, this is just an idea I'm throwing out there that might be completely wrong, but will hopefully prompt some discussion.

I think that's wonderful! Please coach.

What should a Marathoner concentrate on in the final weeks? Obviously, there are many things. But is VO2max sessions near the top of the list?

Skuj wrote:

What is 110% Vo2 max pace? Or 90%? The lines are fuzzy of course, but, beyond 100% Vo2 max is beyond "aerobic capacity".

Coach K wrote:

I don't think most coaches would agree with this defintion. VO2max workouts are done at near 100% vVO2max which is well within the anaerobic zone.

What's your point? Sure 100% vo2 is full aerobic capacity, but he's right that it is in the anaerobic zone. Surely you must know this.

I'm not sure on this, but I'd think that V02max intensity is should not be considered "in the anaerobic zone." You need to think of what the workout is targeting....increased heart stroke volume, simulating 5k pace, etc. It is an AEROBIC capacity workout. Sure, you develop lactic acid at this intensity though...significant enough amounts to develop some buffering capacity and to experience pain- but that is not the purpose of the workout and therefore I would not consider it to be an "anaerobic." Even something like 12 by 400m at 1500m race pace w/2:30 rest is going to be mainly aerobic in nature....although it should result in more lactic acid and could be considered targeting the "anaerobic system."

On a side note,

I really do like Pfitzinger's books and the science that he uses. Sometimes its easy to get too caught up in all the numbers and charts though....especially with those in "Daniels Formula" and "Run with the Best"

I have to disagree. The belief to train more pace specific in order to perform better is probably one of the most common mistakes coaches do for 5/10k at least.

They fail to realize that the internal system/metabolism is far more important to optimize than the outer system. A high LT can best be trained with LT sessions and a high LT (unless you are a pure marathon runner) is almost linear to your performance in the 5k/10k.

You must do pace spesific also - but just part of the year and usually is is a matter of finding out how little is enough vs how much more can be done.

Marius