Isn't "Event Specificity" More Important Than "VO2max" And "LT" Zones And All That?

Skuj, of course the top runners of 800m must be fast, but the question is "how much fast", and "how much resistant".

I give you an example, looking for the top 80 all-time for 400, 800 and 1500m :

400 800 1500

10 44.05 1:42.62 3:29.29

20 44.20 1:42.98 3:30.18

30 44.30 1:43.22 3:30.77

40 44.38 1:43.38 3:31.13

50 44.46 1:43.57 3:31.49

60 44.51 1:43.70 3:31.76

70 44.58 1:43.88 3:32.06

80 44.62 1:43.95 3:32.37

How many athletes are in both 400 and 800 ? Juantorena only.

How many athletes are in 800 / 1500 ? Many.

So, an athlete able running 1:43.0 and 3:30, for having the same level of speed (looking for his international position) had to run 44.20, and this is not possible. So, in any case, they are surely FAST, but their speed is not at the same level of their SPECIFIC ENDURANCE.

Methodologically speaking, IS IT POSSIBLE RUNNING VERY FAST THE SHORTER DISTANCE OF THE MAIN DISTANCE THAT YOU PREPARE, NOT THE CONTRARY.

This is true for all the events. A lot of long runners of 10,000 improve when decide to prepare HM. A lot of runners of 1500 improve when move on 3000m too, WITHOUT REDUCING THE SPEED OF THEIR FASTEST TESTS.

The phylosophy of training is very simple : NEVER WE HAVE TO REPLACE ONE TYPE OF TRAINING WITH ANOTHER, BUT WE HAVE TO ADD WHAT WE DON'T DO.

In my life, I had a lot of athletes, from different Countries, coming to me already with very good PB. We must always remember THAT A PB OF AN ATHLETE IS DONE BECAUSE OF 2 REASONS : HIS TALENT (and we cannot do anything in this direction, this is a gift of God, Mama and Papa. Who doesn'have, cannot have), and HIS TRAINING. So, when we want that some athlete can improve, WE MUST NOT CHANGE WHAT HE DID, BUT ADD WHAT WE DIDN'T DO.

If I see a talented athlete able running 1:45 and 3:35, using a lot of speed and very little endurance, and I see that he's talented for moving to longer distances, I work for changing his mentality, and, step by step, I put in his training something extensive, at high speed. So, my goal for the next year is not to run 1:44, but 1:45 again and 3:31. After his 3:31, the next year can run easy 1:44 (some example : Mansour Bilal, or Rashid Ramzi, and in the past Cram, Aouita, William Chirchir, Bahla).

Look the example of Paula Radcliffe. She was, for years, the most aggressive runner of 5000 / 10000m, because her lack of final speed. She was always in front af the races, but, with the Ethiopians, when there were 4 athletes in the last lap, she was no. 4. So, the solution it was to move to longer distances.

Paula spent, if I well remember, 5 or 6 years for moving her PB in 3000 from 8:31 to 8:28, using a lot of speed for becoming faster in the last lap. She NEVER became faster.

After moving to long distances, of course with the correct system of training (not long run only, but extension of the intensity), she ran London Marathon in 2002 in about 2:18. That's was in April. In June, her first race on track of the season, she ran 3000m in 8:23. Somebody can think that the long run was damageous for 3000m ? If you have 5.0 of improvement, suddenly, after preparing ALSO (not ONLY) Marathon, and 3.0 in 5 years THINKING TO PREPARE THE SPECIFIC EVENT, which is the reason ?

The reason is that YOU WERE ABLE TO ENHANCE THE SPECIAL BASE FOR YOUR SPECIFIC TRAINING. When you have more endurance, if you are able to maintain the same top speed that you have, AUTOMATICALLY YOU RUN FASTER THE SHORTER DISTANCES.

So, I want to emphatize the importance of the AEROBIC TRAINING for supporting the SPECIFIC TRAINING : may be that there is not a DIRECT influence on the performance, but there is of sure a DIRECT INFLUENCE on the QUANTITY OF SPECIFIC TRAINING. More quantity of specific. more specific endurance. But, for doing it, YOU NEED TO INCREASE YOUR SPECIAL ENDURANCE.

Skuj wrote:

I didn't do anything. I just asked a few questions, and the real experts took over! :)

I think "that other guy" is just as fed up as I am with silly battles. I do believe he has been here, contributing very positively.

It's all good. Oh, and bump.

There is no need to bump a thread only a few minutes after the last post. If you don't have anything constructive to offer, just read and be silent please. Let's stay on topic, boys.

How Steve Cram trains ?

http://www.britishmilersclub.com/bmcnews/2003spring.pdf

What i may say to add Renato’s post ? My interpretation of Steve Cram training is that the EXTENSIVE and the INTENSIVE process you may consider both global TRAINING DIRECTION and TRAINING PERIODISATION.

About Cram, if we consider the training PERIODISATION we see a winter build up period of GENERIC training with runs that are consider lactate management – long fast/intense continuous runs followed by some fartlek and low-pace intervals. Therefore, later in the season during the pre competitive and competitive macro-cycles he goes into track fast interval training DIRECTION up to intensity and faster pace as SPECIFIC training considered – that means faster workouts, but the target doesn’t go out of what Jimmy Hedley Cram´s coach considers the key of Cram specific workouts. Jimmy own idea (page 12 of the related article on BMC) “Jimmy realised that his strengths were ENDURANCE AND SPEED ENDURANCE. Basic natural speed was never one of Steve’s main assets. Consequently, training has been designed to work to Steve’s strengths”. What that means ? It means that he is a slow type 800m-1500m-3000m runner and that the main training direction goes to the enhance by short interval training close to race pace intensity and with short recover. Training workouts like those of page 12- Fig. 5 are the ones.

6X800m/2:05 rec=2min and 6X600m/92-93s rec=90sec. That’s relate to 7:43.1 3000m Steve PB, therefore considered SPECIFIC 3000m RACE PACE and also AEROBIC POWER for 1500m race (3:29.6 PB) and AEROBIC CONDITION for Cram 1:42.88m 800m PB).

6-10X400m/57-58s rec= 60sec and 10-12X400m/60sec rec=60sec. That’s 1500m RACE PACE and also may be considered 3000m SPEED STRENGHT ENDURANCE and also 800m AEROBIC POWER.

10-12X300m/41sec rec=45sec and 10-12X200m/26-27sec rec=30sec. That’s 800m RACE PACE as well as Steve´s 1500m SPEED STRENGHT ENDURANCE.

The final “bottom” line of the season periodisation and the season modulation both process is trough SPEED STRENGHT ENDURANCE specific workouts, those fast workouts that starts seven days prior to competition (look page 15 – Session 1 and 2) 8X200m/25-26srec=60s and 2X400m+6X200m.

Interesting to read that the rule of the interval rec. that is 15sec for each 100m run, therefore 30s for 200m; 45sec for 300m; 60sec for 400m and 90sec for 600m and 2min for 800m intervals are short recover periods – as Renato says it, but of course that´s shorter and harder for short intervals (200m and 300m) than when he does longer interval distances (600m and 800m). This goes and works as Renato states. Short intervals with short recover but when you longer the distance of those interval workouts the interval is longer relate to the distance and the speed/intensity. Then are longer time and open interval considered. If you take a look to other 800m-1500m middle distance training schools as the one from Spain , Fermin Cacho 3:28.95 in 1997 still European record and 1992 Barcelona gold in 1500m, Reyes Esteves 3:30.57, José Luis Gonzales 3:30.92 or Isaac Viciosa 3:30.94 and also the Portuguese Rui Silva 3:30 and 2004 1500m Olympic bronze - all of them they best in 3000m than in 800m, so they are resistant type and not fast fiber type and frequently they use to train similar to what Renato suggests – early on the season they run workouts of short fast intervals with short recover but AT SEA LEVEL, then when the major competition approaches they go to ALTITUDE STAYS for 3 weeks to 2 months period and they run longer intervals kind of tests with long/open recover. Finally they come down to compete just a few days before the competition. They use to train as so.

This is a training system I would like that Renato will say something more why you think that works but from the methodological and training technique point of view, not from the scientific rationale.

Ps – Tony-runner (Paul ???) I miss your e-mails. I guess you also miss my replies Try to send me a new one – may be several ones - for my usual e-mail address.

Thanks again, Renato, et al. While I digest the latest discussion points, Renato's post made me think of Canadian Jerry Ziak, who will run his first Marathon in a few days time, and who quite likely has NOT CHANGED WHAT HE DID, BUT ADDED WHAT HE DIDN'T DO. Perhaps he isn't done with big 5000m / 10000m PBs yet? Or shorter distances?! (Age 31). I think Jerry reads this thread. Perhaps he will comment??

Skuj wrote:

Thanks again, Renato, et al. While I digest the latest discussion points, Renato's post made me think of Canadian Jerry Ziak, who will run his first Marathon in a few days time, and who quite likely has NOT CHANGED WHAT HE DID, BUT ADDED WHAT HE DIDN'T DO. Perhaps he isn't done with big 5000m / 10000m PBs yet? Or shorter distances?! (Age 31). I think Jerry reads this thread. Perhaps he will comment??

I don't think you should emphasize by capitalization a point that is pure speculation on your part. It is very misleading. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but only Jerry should be commenting on that. Please try to add something of substance to the thread instead of this incessant cheerleading.

(I apologize to the rest of you for this necessary interruption, but this guy needs to put a cork in it.)

Thanks for the posts Renato, Can you explain some of your terms?

Special Endurance, Strength Endurance, and Specific Endurance?

If the key for the 1,500m is improving specific endurance through fast repeats with short rests, when should these be done? In the last 2 months of the season or so? Or should we use them for a short period of time, then go back to aerobic type work to refresh the aerobic system, then go back to the fast tests with short recovery?

IQ100

Can you post more about the training of spanish middle distance runners. i;d be interested in hearing about their training philosophy for those events.

Not Jerry wrote:

Skuj wrote:

Thanks again, Renato, et al. While I digest the latest discussion points, Renato's post made me think of Canadian Jerry Ziak, who will run his first Marathon in a few days time, and who quite likely has NOT CHANGED WHAT HE DID, BUT ADDED WHAT HE DIDN'T DO. Perhaps he isn't done with big 5000m / 10000m PBs yet? Or shorter distances?! (Age 31). I think Jerry reads this thread. Perhaps he will comment??

I don't think you should emphasize by capitalization a point that is pure speculation on your part. It is very misleading. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but only Jerry should be commenting on that. Please try to add something of substance to the thread instead of this incessant cheerleading.

(I apologize to the rest of you for this necessary interruption, but this guy needs to put a cork in it.)

Anyone wanna tell this guy that Skuj coaches Jerry?

I know Jerry, but I'm not his coach.

Kaboing! wrote:

Anyone wanna tell this guy that Skuj coaches Jerry?

I thought Skuj coached penguins in Canada.

Great points (by Renato, and great intrepretation/applicaiton) by you. And this is where Lydiard disciples and Lydiard himself had it wrong: they decided, based on the Snell example, that ALL 800 runners should be doing 22 mile training runs. Yup, that's right, ALL of them. And if you didn't well, you were either selling yourself short or lying about not doing them. Lydiard disciples (ok, not all, but many), think there is ONLY ONE WAY. They are wrong, and Renato, you and others are correct- while the general principles might be very similar, different types of athletes need different types of training.

And IQ 100 (or was it "Boom"?....or An----o ?), also made a great example of this where Arthur took a great Finn athlete under his wings and the guy got slower. For every Snell he had, I am sure he had 10 guys like that)

i love you. but do prepare to be insulted and debunked.

Tom Bradycardia (or it was “sprinter800”? or “5J special”? ...or Ma_ _o ?),

Yes, long runs for 800m. Compreeesive. If you run 800m in less than 2min you need 22miles once a week. That´s not generic training considered but very specific to run for 2 hours if in your event you run for less than 2 minutes.Don´t forget the Lydiard way to lace your shoes, something that Vasala did miss when he was in NZ. If you miss that you will have no chance. Keep on blood transfusions as Vasala did it. That helps quite a lot. Best than 100 miles to high up your aerobic condition.

private investigator wrote:

Tom Bradycardia (or it was “sprinter800”? or “5J special”? ...or Ma_ _o ?),

Yes, long runs for 800m. Compreeesive. If you run 800m in less than 2min you need 22miles once a week. That´s not generic training considered but very specific to run for 2 hours if in your event you run for less than 2 minutes.Don´t forget the Lydiard way to lace your shoes, something that Vasala did miss when he was in NZ. If you miss that you will have no chance. Keep on blood transfusions as Vasala did it. That helps quite a lot. Best than 100 miles to high up your aerobic condition.

Well, that was my first post on this thread, though I do have other user names (not the ones you indicated though).

But yes, if I understand your humor, I appreciate it and got a laugh. And if this is AC by any chance, keep up the good work with your posts. (if not, well then, carry on anyway)

oh this is terrible fun. oh.

private investigator wrote:

Tom Bradycardia (or it was “sprinter800”? or “5J special”? ...or Ma_ _o ?),

Yes, long runs for 800m. Compreeesive. If you run 800m in less than 2min you need 22miles once a week. That´s not generic training considered but very specific to run for 2 hours if in your event you run for less than 2 minutes.Don´t forget the Lydiard way to lace your shoes, something that Vasala did miss when he was in NZ. If you miss that you will have no chance. Keep on blood transfusions as Vasala did it. That helps quite a lot. Best than 100 miles to high up your aerobic condition.

Renato, a related question for you.(Another aside to the North Americans on board; can you imagine question and answer with Belichek or Parcells like this!)

You have stated that it takes many years to build the necessary base and that we North Americans tend to be impatient.

Is there an explanation as to how the young Africans run 12:50 at 19 or 20?

I surmise that it is their 30-40 min runs at tempo pace. Are they exceptions? You have also stated that you don't put too much weight to the natural superiority argument. If that is so, for North Americans to get to world class by 21-22, should we not be training much harder and faster?

As always, thank you for your participation.

Ok I get that IQ100, thanks and to Renato also. I have a further comment/question however. Aerobic power sessions are also done with quite open recovery - yes? As the Cram article comments the interval for Crams longer rep (800's) was still short (though in proportion along the principle of 15sec per 100). If one considers Dave Moorcroft aerobic power sessions of 4-5 1000 at 2.28/2.30 (also his 3000 pace 7.32pb) one sees long recovery - presumably passive - of up to 7 minutes (see also British Milers Club for details - and thanks to them for publishing).

My question - is there greater benefit in aerobic power sessions with longer recovery (open as Renato says) together with shorter, fast, short recovery sessions rather than aerobic power sessions with short recovery (as seen in Cram example)together with short, fast, short recovery sessions?

If there is a place for all three types of session then what is the benefit of the longer recovery? I ask this because it seems to me that Cram and Moorcroft are of similar 'type' - not fast, but resistant. Both did sessions at 3k pace, Cram 800, short recovery. Moorcroft 1000, long recovery. Moorcroft seemed to do these sessions year round whereas Cram did them for a relatively short period at start of pre-comp phase and then moved on to shorter, more intense tests.

Great questions, tony-runner. Yeah, Moorcroft always came across as unique to me with regards to his speed training. I think 5x1000m ith 7min rests was typical, but Man he ran hard...usually sub 2:30, often 2:25....this is approaching Mile pace fer feck sake!!! 5x1000m, excuse me??? Also, I saw a lot of 300s with 3min recovery.

It can be argued of course that Moorcroft rarely got it right when it mattered most. Still, I fell off my chair when I heard he ran 13-flat, knocking 6sec off Henry's time. And he was around 30, married, kids.....

Now isn't that rather SPECIFIC TRAINING for 1500m/5000m though, eh? 5x1000m, long recovery, FAST runs! VO2max be damned!

Some back ground; I have followed a lot of these threads for some time now and have learned a huge amount. To see the likes of Renato Canova contribute is amazing but why is there this necessity to turn what he and others say as negativism towards what Lydiard said ????.

I have been around the traps enough to know that terminology and Training ideas change but with what Renato is saying, I feel Arthur Lydiard would not necessarily disagree with. If you look at the other great Kiwi Coach : Arch Jelley. His 'terminology' etc would even be closer to what Renato is saying.

Robbie Johnston (NZ Olympian) wrote an excellent piece in a Kiwi mag called VO2 Max. He compared the training of John Walker to that of El Gerrouj. The piece had far more similarities than differences.

Where does this hangup come from regarding Lydiard saying that every 800m runner has to run 22 miles once a week because Snell did so.

I read on one of the threads where I believe Kim Stevenson stated that the reason Arthur put 22 miles into his schedules was that happened to be the distance from the Lydiard household around the famous Waiatarua course.

I looked up a Lydiard 880m schedule just now to check just what he said. Exactly this : Sunday ; Long Aerobic run 11/2 hours or more. Where is 22 miles ???????

He also has specific "workouts" in there that are not that different from what Renato is talking about.

Now my own negative : I note that all those who contribute regarding Lydiard have made themselves available to contact.

Most of those who are negative in this aspect only communicate through here and no one has any idea who they are. Okay ! I'm one too !!!

I have contacted one of those "Lydiardites" to get a question clarified and recieved a prompt reasonable answer.

Come on team lets keep this thread going with the "Good Vibrations".