I've been following Lydiards program, or variations of it, and when he says 1/4, 1/2, or 3/4 pace I use the paces from Daniels book for Easy, Marathon, and Threshold.
It has been working pretty well so far.
According to Joe Newtons book, however, it looks like Lydiards paces are faster than the ones Daniels has.
I always found Lydiard's message to be best exemplified in the anecdote (parable?) about him watching Snell do intervals around a grassy field. Curious onlookers asked how fast he was doing them. He said he didn't know. They asked how many Snell was doing. He said he didn't know.
The specifics don't matter. There is no secret. Run how you feel. Until you are "comfortably" tired.
I also find it instructive that Snell is said to have focused on volume goals before pace goals in his base phase.
In my "Lydiardesque" way at GBTC practice on Tuesday I told a guy when asked about what pace to run his mileage. "If when you finished a run a guy came up to you and asked if you could run that distance again? You'd say no way! But if he offered you $500 if you could, you'd run and take then money." That's the pace for training.
(I have other ones too, like you have to be somewhere between a wimp and a maniac.)
Tom
ps Nobby, I ran on your hill today.
vitamin Z wrote:
I always found Lydiard's message to be best exemplified in the anecdote (parable?) about him watching Snell do intervals around a grassy field.
I thought that was Dick Tayler. Snell probably did the same thing several times anyway, so the idea's the same. A fit runner who's built endurance from the ground up and spent a lot of time developing an internal sense of what's training and what's overtraining is liable to be sensitive to his needs for the workout, even if it's a high intensity workout.
fyi: i found a copy of Running the Lydiard Way at the University library. they actually had lots of great books there (Bompa, Daniels, Coe/Martin, etc.). They allow you to check it out for quite some time and its not like there are many people actually checking them out so they are almost always available. any state funded university's library is public so even non affiliated can check them out. if they do not have the book there, they can always look in their system, find it, and have it sent to them.
dmonspeed wrote:
I have a first edition, signed copy of Lydiards book... anyone have an idea as to how much it would be worth?
The term "Steady State" and "AeT" are synonymous which Canova would define as 2.0 mmol of blood lactate... or 85-90% of Lactate Threshold pace per mile. 100 miles per week at that effort seems somewhat reasonable if you don't have a job, have a good diet, take naps... etc.
100mpw at Marathon pace, which is what you are describing, is not how the top runners train, that would be way too hard, even for them.
I found this a while back and found it helpful for determining the 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 effort:
"1/4 effort - easier, but still aerobic pace (not jogging), 65-70% of (Maximum minus resting heart rate). For example, with a resting of 55 and max of 195, it works out to 145 to 153 beats per minute.
1/2 effort - run at a strong aerobic, but sub tempo pace, 70-75% of (Maximum minus resting heart rate). For example 153 to 160 beats per minute.
3/4 effort - run at tempo pace/At Threshold (AT) pace, 75-85% of (Maximum minus resting heart rate). For example 160 to 174 beats per minute."
I raced a 1/2 Marathon in May and wore my HRM and determined that my average HR during that race ~ 5:20/mi pace was 178. Based of that when I started building up my base again this summer I focused on trying to keep my 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 paces around that figure. 1/4 felt slow at first, and 3/4 felt fast- but after 6 weeks of it- I'm pretty sure I can hit those paces without my HRM. Assuming I stay healthy and I gradually get more fit, I'll eventually be running at the same effort- only I'll be going faster. Thats really what I think the 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 efforts are trying to get across to people. Nobby, do I have the right idea?
Here is the discussion:
http://www.bunnhill.com/BobHodge/Special/LydiardInterpreted.htm
In summary, Lydiarism is more religion than science.
The prophet spoke in parables ... his apostles tried to transcibe his words but were not always successful ... he worked miracles and showed us the rightous way ... Lydiard is a state of mind ... etc.
AGRREE. I KNOW I'LL GET KILLED FOR THIS BUT I THINK LYDIARD HAS BEEN DEIFIED BEYOND RECOGNITION / BELIEF. HE HAD SOME GOOD IDEAS BUT HIS MOST ARDENT FOLLOWERS SEEM TO THINK THAT HIS FARTS WERE TRAINING ADVICE OR THAT YOUR VO2 MAX ROSE WHEN YOU SAW HIM IN THE FLESH. HE WAS JUST A GUY NOT A GOD. LIKE JOHN LENNON. THERE WAS A NORMAL GUY, FAULTS AND ALL, BEHIND THE MYTH THAT HAS BEEN BUILT UP.
denton wrote:
alan,...
yes we do...i have acopy of one of lydiard's books that never gets mentioned that he wrote for TnFnews...in it he outlines what 1/4. 1/2. 3/4 is.....based upon current fitness over that distance....
Care to share or are we hiding this book in a wall somewhere?..:)
My view of Lydiard's 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 effort has always been Steady, Hard, Harder. If we look at his "basic" conditioning schedule:
10 miles 1/2 effort hilly
15 miles 1/4 effort
12 miles 1/2 effort hilly
18 miles 1/4 effort
10 miles 3/4 effort
22 miles 1/4 effort
15 miles 1/4 effort
Now I'm sure Lydiard would have a sliding scale that you imputed distance and it gave you 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 paces. Meaning running 1/4 effort for 22 miles would be a different pace than running 1/4 effort for 15 miles.
Alan
No, I don't think so. If we can be such a good runner by seeing him in flesh, I should have been an Olympic champion but I'm not (never was, never will be).
We would actually really like to explore some of the Lydiard myths, as I thought I was doing (like Snell running 150 miles a week, etc.) but obviously you don't think so. In fact, I'm not trying to criticise you but I would very much like to know what YOU think are the myths specifically because we would like to clear them. If you don't have any idea and just saying that...well, perhaps I should stop here! ;o)
Nobby obviously there was some exaggerating going on there. I thought it was funny actually. Nobby I hate to say it but you often blow up on people and lose your temper unneccessarily. Your not very nice a lot of times. Sorry I had to say it.
I may so but seriously not quite this time. I really meant that I would like to know. Because quite often people say things simply "just because" and not other reason. But if there IS actually some thing, I would really like to know. Actually I thought it was quite funny. In fact, last time I really actually got upset was to Skuj's comment about coaching. Other than that, I know that we can't make everybody happy and I sort of keep what Arthur used to say; I lurk to see what others are thinking about. I try to offer what I know, including how I feel about certain things. I actually consider myself being more "honest" than short-tempered. But if that's not enough for you, I don't know what to say.
What did Skuj say about coaching?
..most of his 1/2, 1/2, etc...were for time trials and not specific off day runs.....there are/were many variations for each based upon what your current time is....i am not writing down every one, but i'll see in the copy i have and give a few egs....
a few egs...
220 yards full 30 sec, 3/4 32, 1/2 35 and 1/4 39
440 was full 60 sec, 3/4 64, 1/268 and 1/4 72
880 was full 2:01 3/4 2:07, 1/2 2:13 and 1/4 2:19
mile was full 4:10, 3/4 4:16, 1/2 4:25 and 1/4 4:33
3km full was 9:00, 3/4 9:13, 1/2 9:30 and 1/4 9:50
5km full was 15:00, 3/4 15:25, 1/2 15:50 and 1/4 16:20
10km full was 31:00, 3/4 31:40, 1/2 32:32:20 and 1/4 33:00
..next time ask nice i might write out more.....
..and the book is a next find copy of 'arthur lydiard's running training schedules' 2nd edition 1970 by TNF News
Its been 30 years since i was at my best as a runner, i spend most of my time cycling these days. My recollection of Lydiard is more from hindsight.But I do remember in the 70s quite a few of us using his tables as a basis for our training and being quite successful with it. Looking back i also know many coaches made(and still make) the mistake of timed intervals without regard to individual perceived levels of exertion. I think Lydiard was way ahead of his time in this regard. In my day and today i believe most athletes train too hard on what should be easier days and too easy on their hard days. There is a time for effort and a time for recovery, alot of modern coaches really do not grasp that concept. It might seem to you that people are giving Lydiard too much credit but the fact is, he came up with a great system years ago that worked and when you understand the system, the basic principle is simple. I think he was far ahead of his time.
yykes wrote:
dmonspeed wrote:I have a first edition, signed copy of Lydiards book... anyone have an idea as to how much it would be worth?
The term "Steady State" and "AeT" are synonymous which Canova would define as 2.0 mmol of blood lactate... or 85-90% of Lactate Threshold pace per mile. 100 miles per week at that effort seems somewhat reasonable if you don't have a job, have a good diet, take naps... etc.
100mpw at Marathon pace, which is what you are describing, is not how the top runners train, that would be way too hard, even for them.
yykes- I agree that there's no one foolish enough to try to run 100 mpw at that intensity. Only in theory do I think it could be done... maybe very early in the base phase while fitness is at a low point and current steady state is slower. I once read, and maybe it was crap, that Tergat was running a marathon every other day with a majority of it at his goal pace for his attempt at the world record for the marathon.. that would be 100+ mpw, what percentage of it was at his goal pace I don't know.
But... wrote:
What did Skuj say about coaching?
Skuj wrote:
The ATHLETES got the results. Damn! A coach coaches: Inspires, motivates, leads....
The coach might take credit for 10%.
Discuss.
Poor Skuj did not make many friends with that comment.