marathon training- straight outta high school?

i bet you could do it

You'd better abandon all that paavo stuff if you're going to train for a marathon. That system does not fit with what a marathon requires. You need LONG runs, not shitload of intervals. Now, long intervals (like 10-15 min at threshold pace) can be very beneficial. But hitting the track is pretty much going to be useless for what you're trying to accomplish.

Regarding you being young, you're not too young. You'll do fine as long as you can get your long runs up long enough and learn how to adequately take in fluids and glucose WHILE RUNNING. This is something you need to work on heavily while training. Have someone meet you at designated points along your long run routes and hand you paper cups full of whatever you want. People really underestimate how much of a skill this can be.

that makes sense. paavo only gets into intervals if you advance into the higher brackets/levels of training, but the base work is all mileage and none of it junk miles. i did 50-60 in singles and 70 without much success in doubles (by the end of the week i was beat, each and every week). what do you think would be adequate mileage ranges for my first marathon? also, with pr's like mine, how fast (all factors included) could i possibly finish?

Actually, there was a study out of Wisconsin back in the 90s (you young kids...). They used a bunch of recreational runners. I know, you're better than recreational...just listen.

They had 4 groups of participants - two "high" mileage groups and two "low" mileage groups. I think the high was ~50 and the low was ~30 mpw (which is too low imo). Anyway, one of the high and one of the low groups focused on getting in one long run a week, while the other groups ran basically all the same distance runs throughout the week. When it came time for the race (i think it was grandma's marathon or twin cities) the groups that performed best were the two groups that got in those long runs each week. Even the lower mileage group that did the long run ran better tha the higher mileage group that did no long run. Again, this was recreational runners (joggers I guess most would call them) who just wanted to complete a marathon.

Anyway, I'd say you should slowly increase your miles, no more than ~10-15% over what you were already running, though. So, if you were running 70, you could work your way up to ~80 mpw. You're still young, take those increases slowly right now. Your "primary" workouts should be your long run and longer tempos (which will NOT be at true threshold pace, but more like your goal pace for the marathon). Then every 10 days or so, get in some true tempo/threshold training - something like 4x10min with 2 min easy running between. I know a lot of people dont like the cookie cutter programs of books, but the training paces in Daniels running formula can REALLY help out with this. A lot of people i've met over the years (particularly younger guys) try to go too hard on threshold runs.

Of course...you have not mentioned how many weeks/months you have available for this. So, this could influence everything.

sorry...i screwed up. I see now that you said running 70 had you dead each week. Running longer IS what you need. I'm not sure 50 will get you where you want - I'm sure you'll probably finish, but I dont know about breaking 3 hr. Who knows, you might. But did that 70 have lots of paavo style intervals included? Too much intensity AND volume is probably what killed you. A lot of volume, OR a lot of intensity probably wont do that alone. Too much of both and you're dead.

So, when increasing your miles, you must pay attention that you're not running too fast on easy runs. When I was your age, most runs turned into tempos by the end. RESIST that urge. stay relaxed and take it easy. Put the watch away...unless seeing that you're running too fast will help you slow down some.

When you increase those miles, you will be tired. But your body will adapt over time (if you take it easy and actually allow it to recover). I would say, if you're going to top out at ~70 (for example) that you stay there for 4-6 weeks to get used to the volume BEFORE adding in any kind of tempo running. Keep some kind of strides 2-3 days a week after runs, so you dont feel slow all the time. But wait for the tough workouts.

yeah, 70 was really tough. i'd do three or four in the morning before school, not fast but not slow either. on paavo, the 70-mile level is the begininng of 2-a-days. everything up to that was in singles. it was really tough. i know i could do it but i just didn't spend enough time getting up to it, not enough time at sixty or so. i didn't really do any intervals until the last quarter of the track season. i'd do a long run (three in the morning and 12 in the afternoon) and two all-out sessions on tuesday and thursday, four on tuesday and eight on thursday. on the other days, four in the morning, seven after school. i won't even get into my saturday workout. it worked well for me the past four years, i started out running 25's or so for the 5000. it's just really hard. i'm almost always tired, but i seem to still run okay. unrealistic to keep doing whta i'm doing for the marathon?

some lydiard stuff courtesy of Glenn Mcarthy.

there are certain times that you want to get to because of the benefits that you derive from running that long. Every day you should run at least 1 hour to 1 hour 5 minutes. You should do that 5 days a week. One day during the middle of the week try to run 90 minutes, say Wednesday or Thursday. On Saturday, run 75 minutes. Then on Sunday run 90 minutes the first week, 105 the second and 120 the third. You will likely have to slow down initially to be able to finish. You will also likely feel pretty wiped out, especially after that first 2 hour run. But the training impact will show up by the middle of the 2nd month.

If you do that for 3 months you will be 90% there to a great marathon

Tony wrote: I know a lot of people dont like the cookie cutter programs of books, but the training paces in Daniels running formula can REALLY help out with this. A lot of people i've met over the years (particularly younger guys) try to go too hard on threshold runs.

Or the Hansons' marathon program, with an even stronger focus on MP and other strength work, less on speed. You can certainly incorporate some of the philosophy and workouts from cookie cutter programs without following them to the letter.

Yeah, that was kind of my point. I dont always like the actual workouts in Daniel's book, even though I really really like the training pace charts. I think they are so helpful for understanding what you're supposed to be doing in certain types of workouts/runs, as opposed ot just going out and "running hard". I know, I've pushed running on feel on here many times, but mostly for guys asking about summer training to get ready for xc.

I do feel that one training for a marathon (particularly the first one...unless an elite runner) should probably NOT be doing a lot of VO2 intervals, and should focus primarily on upping the total mileage, marathon pace training over long(er) runs, and some threshold/tempo training (but a little bit longer tempos with the appropriate modifications to pace, ala talbe 7.1 or 7.2 (I think it is) in Daniels book.

817, quit living on dreams

817, life is not what it seems

Such a lonely little girl in a cold, cold world

There's someone who needs you

817, quit livin' on dreams

817, life is not what it seems

You're lost in the night

Don't wanna struggle and fight

There's someone who needs you

->

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBW2ZO8Vrac

i don't know, seems so unstructured. i know every day exactly what i'll be doing and it's the same every seven or eight day cycle. i know exactly how fast i'm supposed to do every workout. very specific. i know that i long run on mondays and i know i race on tuesdays and thursdays, etc.

817 wrote:

i don't know, seems so unstructured. i know every day exactly what i'll be doing and it's the same every seven or eight day cycle. i know exactly how fast i'm supposed to do every workout. very specific. i know that i long run on mondays and i know i race on tuesdays and thursdays, etc.

You RACE on tues and thur?! WHY?!?!?!

And what seems so unstructured. What one of wrote above? If you want some structure (very well defined), then email me.