heavy lifting with high mileage

flagpile wolly wrote:

would there be a substantial payoff if said runner does not get injured?

Sure. But of course avoiding injury is the problem! Still, this might be a great help to you. Couple notes:

You say "heavy lifting." I'm assuming that means lifting heavy weights, but *not* a large number of sets (nor a large number of reps per set). Go with two or three sets per body part, with weights that permit (say) six to twelve reps per set. (The lower reps would be stuff like chest and triceps; the higher reps for back/legs/biceps. Abs/core could go higher still, perhaps 20-30 reps per set.) Lifting heavy weights, with limited sets and reps, will increase your strength with little or no weight gain.

A general warmup is good before lifting. (Some do their abs at the beginning of the session. This seems to get the whole body warm.) A specific warmup (a set of ~10 reps at about 3/4 of your "workout" weight) is also helpful, particularly as you increase the weights you're lifting.

Don't blast into gut-busting, maximum-weight sessions right from the beginning. Give yourself a couple weeks to learn the movements properly, while gradually increasing the weight from very light to moderate.

Run after lifting, if you can. Any tightness from the lifting loosens up in a few minutes. On the days that you do leg exercises, your running afterward ideally should include a few acceleration runs wherein you build to top (or nearly top) sprinting speed. Don't attempt this for the first 2-3 weeks of your lifting routine, however. (And recover completely--several minutes' walking is good--between the top-speed accelerations.)

Finally, monitor your recovery. Check your waking pulse (count it for a full minute) before you get out of bed in the morning; if it's elevated, particularly 10% or more above normal, then you've probably recovered incompletely. Also be alert for any signs of boredom or reduced enthusiasm--these are *physical* changes prompted by insufficient recovery.

Remember that late October and November are what count the most. Good luck this year!

running fast and having big muscles don't go hand in hand. you can lift all you want, but that bulk will be slowing you down. here is a bit of muscle physiology for you (this could get a lot more in depth- but we'll just stick with 2 fiber types):

Type I muscle fibers

These have the slowest-contractile speed, the smallest cross-sectional area, the highest oxidative (aerobic) capacity, and the lowest glycolytic (anaerobic) capacity. They contract slowly and are able to hold a steady paced twitch for long durations without fatigue. Type I muscle fibers are primarily used in endurance events. They increase mitochondrial density (your little engines), and capilarization (to provide oxygen) with training (mileage), not in size.

Type II Muscle Fibers

Type II-b muscle fibers have the fastest-contractile speed, the largest cross-sectional area, the lowest oxidative capacity, and the highest glycolytic (anaerobic) capacity. These fibers are suited for short fast bursts of power, and they increase in cross sectional area to adapt to heavy workloads (lifting).

Basically if you want to be a better distance runner- why are you going in the weightroom so much? It is actually slowing you down. As you increase your muscle size, you are increasing the mass of your type 2 fibers (which you don't need for distance running). You might look like a superhero- but you're not helping your running. You might be able to knock a guy out or benchpress/squat a dumptruck- but arent you trying to run fast over long distances?

A lot of coaches recommend minimal lifting and only for injury prevention. If you run as much as you say you're going to, and stay outta the weightroom, I think you'll get much better results.

Since when does lifting increase muscle mass. Eat more calories than you burn and you will gain weight. You have a few ranges, endurance type of range, over 12 or 15. Bodybuilder range of 6/8-12. This is best for hypertrophy, what runners are most likely not interested in. Then you have the low, heavy, powerlifting type range which is good for strength. You have to eat more than you burn to put on weight, that is just the way it is. Your rep/set, etc variables just make it possible or not. Really, I have just read a bit of stuff on the issue and this seems to be my best explanation of what I believe to be true. It could be totally off base.

As a runner you are using your body as one unit working together and your lifting should reflect that in my opinion. Stay the h@ll away from isolation machines, those things are useless and the worst thing to happen to the weightlifting world. Keep the movements are compound as possible and as full body as possible. Deadlift, squat, and bench press are a good start. As well as bent over rows with a barbell and shoulder presses (standing!) are good as well. Compound, lots of stabilizing required. Don't discount the power of "oddlifting" either. Just go out and find a big rock and lift it a bunch of times. Hold it to your chest and do squats with it, shoulder it and walk with it for a while or do squats with it, lift it overhead. This forces everything to work each time and it isn't a conveniently shaped object for you to lift.

my cent

"Since when does lifting increase muscle mass."-Rookie

Did you just get off the short bus? Seriously.

I am impressed however with the big word you used before you made yourself sound dumb: hypertrophy. good work.

OP- keep outta the weight room.

Even lifting minimal reps and heavy weights (5-8 reps X 3-4 sets as much weight as you can handle) will make you bigger. I've been lifting this way since Dec 1 /06 and have picked up close to 15 lbs in additional muscle mass. Will it help your running? For sure, no. I know if I was pumping out steady 80mile weeks and was running say anything under 32min for 10km I'd sure as hell stay away from weights.

Lifting low reps (2-4) w/ heavy weights won't make you get "bigger" either. It won't cause muscle hypertrophy. You'll gain power and get nerual adaptations w/ out hypertrophy.

The reason the above poster gained weights is because he is doing body building style reps. 5-8 reps at medium to heavy weights promotes hypertrophy.

You can also lift for endurance, extremely low weight with very high amt. of weight and you won't get much hypertrophy.

Lifting weights doesn't automatically make you bigger like one of the above posters said. That's nonsense. You can gain strength via CNS/neural adaptations w/ out an increase in muscle size.

Percy Cerruty swore by the use of heavy weight lifting as a means to improving running ability.

He also claimed that low rep/high weight lifting was the right way to avoid bulking up too much. Take a look at a picture of Herb Elliott and decide for yourself if he is right.

Basically unless you devote more energy to weight lifting than to running, your body shape will not change much.

You basically want to activate and teach your muscles to fire with more power. There is a tremendous amount of untapped power in our muscles that is available without an increase in mass.

3-4 sets x 5-8 reps is a body building plan. Especially if you are trying to get big, eating lots of protein, not running as much, lifting 4 days a week etc. Lift 2-3 sets x 8-12 reps, once or twice a week. You won't get big. Progress to 1-2 sets of 5-8 reps, then add plyos and power exercises (10 reps).

Alan

Will weight lifting hinder running? I doubt it. As long as you don't put more than a couple inches on your legs, chest, arms....I believe they will in fact help. Below is a copy of a Pete Pfitzinger article that recaps a study of runners that ran a 10K then ran and weight trained for a few weeks, then ran another 10K...:

____________________________________________________________

"Does weight training improve endurance performance?

A 1988 study by Dr. R.C. Hickson and colleagues at the University of Illinois at Chicago investigated whether adding strength training to an endurance training program would improve endurance performance. The investigators had 8 well-trained cyclists and runners add weight-training to their exercise programs. The subjects performed 3-5 sets of 4 leg exercises, 3 times per week for 10 weeks. Leg strength increased by 27% for parallel squats, 37% for knee extension, and 25% for knee flexion, over the 10 weeks. The weightlifting, however, did not result in any change in the subjects' maximal oxygen consumption (VO2 max)."

____________________________________________________________

In fact I believe that most runners naturally loose 10 to 20 lbs of muscle due to heavy running training. Adding this muscle back through weight training is a good idea. You can't argue with success...

im pretty sure runners aren't supposed to be doing things like 3-4 sets of 8 reps or whatnot. Low weight/high reps...thats what keeps you toned and doesn't gain that extra weight/bulk.

Runners should be doing something more like 2-3 sets of 15-20 reps

uh wrote:

im pretty sure runners aren't supposed to be doing things like 3-4 sets of 8 reps or whatnot. Low weight/high reps...thats what keeps you toned and doesn't gain that extra weight/bulk.

Runners should be doing something more like 2-3 sets of 15-20 reps

no no no, well, the 15-20 reps are fine, but they arent the most effective way to get you stronger.

sets of heavy reps of less than 5 will be the best for making you stronger without causing any size/weight gain

the low weight/15-20 reps would be good to use for like durability building/base building, loosening up, kinda just like easy runs for running.

Answers some questions, by UVA

some research on lifting and finnish distance runners

suggests doing running specific lifting and bodyweight exercise

Strength training for distance runners, guy w/ a Ph.D.

Do some research

For all you goofs that think weights are bad for distance runnners, go read some work on weight training and improved running economy and come back later: the correlations are very high. If it's good enough for Ms P Radcliffe, it's good enough for anyone on this message board.

The kenyans don´t lift weights. Kim McDonald (Komen´s coach) once said that if you can do a lot of strength training, then you´re not running enough.

barakus wrote:

running fast and having big muscles don't go hand in hand. you can lift all you want, but that bulk will be slowing you down. here is a bit of muscle physiology for you (this could get a lot more in depth- but we'll just stick with 2 fiber types):

You know all that other stuff but you can't realize that a skinny guy that runs 80-100 mile weeks isn't going to bulk up all of a sudden?

He's going to need to eat more calories, as he'll be burning more since he'll be doing more, but so long as he doesn't stop running and doesn't take steroids, it would take a LONG time to bulk up.

Non-running people don't even bulk up that quickly.

Seems like to me if you notice that you're "bulking up" (worst case scenario, I guess), then you can simply stop lifting, or at least modify your methods. Seems like lifting is worth a shot, but shouldn't take precedence over running-specific training.

just wanted to point out that you guys aren't kenyan. now go lift some weights.

steffo wrote:

The kenyans don´t lift weights. Kim McDonald (Komen´s coach) once said that if you can do a lot of strength training, then you´re not running enough.

Hey guys am ehtiopian in reality. And I hava a friend who went back home and visited Haile Geb. hoping you guys know who that is. And it's always a mystery to me until now whether I should lift weights or not. So in the mean time i just do chin-ups pull-ups and sit ups since they are natural and even if you feel like bulky at first you will reach a thrush hold. Well anyways my friend told me that Haile does weight lifting and does resistance training. light weight. But I told myself i will wait until i go and meet him in February back home and actually see what those guys do and hopefully when I come back I will have learned everything the ethiopians do.

I don't remember the exact place where I read this, but Geb, when asked as to why he had been struggling over the past year or so, attributed to the fact that he'd been spending his non-running time working on his business interests, whereas before he'd spent that time in the gym...lifting. Especially said it had contributed to his achilles problems. Wish I could remember the source and wasn't too lazy to go find it again. Then I'd be credible.