Lebron not on first team?

froosbabba wrote:

it might have been misleading...

There really isn't any "might have been" about it. It was definitely misleading, and based upon how staunchly you are defending your deception, it sounds like it was intentional.

froosbabba wrote:

i never said kobe wasn't a good defender. i don't consider him a great defender.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, it would seem that the consensus opinion amongst the actual NBA head coaches who compete against him implies that you are wrong...

2005-06

FIRST TEAM SECOND TEAM

Bruce Bowen, San Antonio

Ben Wallace, Detroit

Andrei Kirilenko, Utah

Ron Artest, Indiana

Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers

Jason Kidd, New Jersey

Tim Duncan, San Antonio

Chauncey Billups, Detroit

Kevin Garnett, Minnesota

Marcus Camby, Denver

Tayshaun Prince, Detroit

2004-05

FIRST TEAM SECOND TEAM

Ben Wallace, Detroit

Kevin Garnett, Minnesota

Bruce Bowen, San Antonio

Tim Duncan, San Antonio

Larry Hughes, Washington

Tayshaun Prince, Detroit

Marcus Camby, Denver

Chauncey Billups, Detroit

Andrei Kirilenko, Utah

Jason Kidd, New Jersey

Dwyane Wade, Miami

2003-04

FIRST TEAM SECOND TEAM

Ron Artest, Indiana

Kevin Garnett, Minnesota

Ben Wallace, Detroit

Bruce Bowen, San Antonio

Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers

Andrei Kirilenko, Utah

Tim Duncan, San Antonio

Theo Ratliff, Portland

Doug Christie, Sacramento

Jason Kidd, New Jersey

2002-03

FIRST TEAM SECOND TEAM

Tim Duncan, San Antonio

Kevin Garnett, Minnesota

Ben Wallace, Detroit

Doug Christie, Sacramento

Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers

Ron Artest, Indiana

Bruce Bowen, San Antonio

Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers

Jason Kidd, New Jersey

Eric Snow, Philadelphia

2001-02

FIRST TEAM SECOND TEAM

Tim Duncan, San Antonio

Kevin Garnett, Minnesota

Ben Wallace, Detroit

Gary Payton, Seattle

Jason Kidd, New Jersey

Bruce Bowen, San Antonio

Clifford Robinson, Detroit

Dikembe Mutombo, Philadelphia

Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers

Doug Christie, Sacamento

2000-01

FIRST TEAM SECOND TEAM

Tim Duncan, San Antonio

Kevin Garnett, Minnesota

Dikembe Mutombo, Philadelphia-Atl

Gary Payton, Seattle

Jason Kidd, Phoenix

Bruce Bowen, Miami

P.J. Brown, Charlotte

Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers

Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers

Doug Christie, Sacamento

1999-00

FIRST TEAM SECOND TEAM

Tim Duncan, San Antonio

Kevin Garnett, Minnesota

Alonzo Mourning, Miami

Gary Payton, Seattle

Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers

Scottie Pippen, Portland

Clifford Robinson, Phoenix

Shaquille O'Neal, L.A. Lakers

Eddie Jones, Charlotte

Jason Kidd, Phoenix

1998-99

FIRST TEAM SECOND TEAM

Tim Duncan, San Antonio

Karl Malone, Utah

Scottie Pippen, Chicago

Alonzo Mourning, Miami

Gary Payton, Seattle

Jason Kidd, Phoenix

P.J. Brown, Miami

Theo Ratliff, Philadelphia

Dikembe Mutombo, Atlanta

Mookie Blaylock, Atlanta

Eddie Jones, Charlotte

1997-98

FIRST TEAM SECOND TEAM

Scottie Pippen, Chicago

Karl Malone, Utah

Dikembe Mutombo, Atlanta

Gary Payton, Seattle

Michael Jordan, Chicago

Tim Duncan, San Antonio

Charles Oakley, New York

David Robinson, San Antonio

Mookie Blaylock, Atlanta

Eddie Jones, LA Lakers

1996-97

FIRST TEAM SECOND TEAM

Scottie Pippen, Chicago

Karl Malone, Utah

Dikembe Mutombo, Atlanta

Michael Jordan, Chicago

Gary Payton, Seattle

Anthony Mason, Charlotte

P.J. Brown, Miami

Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston

Mookie Blaylock, Atlanta

John Stockton, Utah

Kobe has been an all defensive first teamer five times. Jordan was all-defensive first team every year after his second season in the league (excluding washington). so, compared to jordan-- if you just want to use all defensive squads as a measuring stick, which is wrong... cuz again, the voting for these are subjective-- kobe is not in jordan's league.

and to further add to the argument, since your arguing seems to imply you feel kobe is the same caliber player as jordan... look at the career stats

kobe's

1996-97 LAL 71 15:30 2.5 5.9 41.7 0.7 1.9 37.5 1.9 2.3 81.9 0.7 1.2 1.9 1.3 1.6 0.7 0.3 1.4 7.6

1997-98 LAL 79 26:00 5.0 11.6 42.8 1.0 2.8 34.1 4.6 5.8 79.4 1.0 2.1 3.1 2.5 2.0 0.9 0.5 2.3 15.4

1998-99 LAL 50 37:53 7.2 15.6 46.5 0.5 2.0 26.7 4.9 5.8 83.9 1.1 4.2 5.3 3.8 3.1 1.4 1.0 3.1 19.9

1999-00 LAL 66 38:12 8.4 17.9 46.8 0.7 2.2 31.9 5.0 6.1 82.1 1.6 4.7 6.3 4.9 2.8 1.6 0.9 3.3 22.5

2000-01 LAL 68 40:53 10.3 22.2 46.4 0.9 2.9 30.5 7.0 8.2 85.3 1.5 4.3 5.9 5.0 3.2 1.7 0.6 3.3 28.5

2001-02 LAL 80 38:17 9.4 20.0 46.9 0.4 1.7 25.0 6.1 7.4 82.9 1.4 4.1 5.5 5.5 2.8 1.5 0.4 2.9 25.2

2002-03 LAL 82 41:30 10.6 23.5 45.1 1.5 4.0 38.3 7.3 8.7 84.3 1.3 5.6 6.9 5.9 3.5 2.2 0.8 2.7 30.0

2003-04 LAL 65 37:36 7.9 18.1 43.8 1.1 3.3 32.7 7.0 8.2 85.2 1.6 3.9 5.5 5.1 2.6 1.7 0.4 2.7 24.0

2004-05 LAL 66 40:42 8.7 20.1 43.3 2.0 5.9 33.9 8.2 10.1 81.6 1.4 4.5 5.9 6.0 4.1 1.3 0.8 2.6 27.6

2005-06 LAL 80 41:00 12.2 27.2 45.0 2.3 6.5 34.8 8.7 10.2 85.0 0.9 4.4 5.3 4.5 3.1 1.8 0.4 2.9 35.4

2006-07 LAL 77 40:47 10.6 22.8 46.3 1.8 5.2 34.4 8.7 10.0 86.9 1.0 4.7 5.7 5.4 3.3 1.4 0.5 2.7 31.6

Career 784 36:12 8.5 18.8 45.3 1.2 3.5 33.7 6.4 7.6 83.8 1.2 4.0 5.2 4.5 2.9 1.5 0.6 2.7 24.6

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3118/career

YEAR TEAM G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG

84-85 CHI 82 82 38.3 .515 .173 .845 2.00 4.50 6.50 5.9 2.39 .84 3.55 3.50 28.2

85-86 CHI 18 7 25.1 .457 .167 .840 1.30 2.30 3.60 2.9 2.06 1.17 2.50 2.60 22.7

86-87 CHI 82 82 40.0 .482 .182 .857 2.00 3.20 5.20 4.6 2.88 1.52 3.32 2.90 37.1

87-88 CHI 82 82 40.4 .535 .132 .841 1.70 3.80 5.50 5.9 3.16 1.60 3.07 3.30 35.0

88-89 CHI 81 81 40.2 .538 .276 .850 1.80 6.20 8.00 8.0 2.89 .80 3.58 3.00 32.5

89-90 CHI 82 82 39.0 .526 .376 .848 1.70 5.10 6.90 6.3 2.77 .66 3.01 2.90 33.6

90-91 CHI 82 82 37.0 .539 .312 .851 1.40 4.60 6.00 5.5 2.72 1.01 2.46 2.80 31.5

91-92 CHI 80 80 38.8 .519 .270 .832 1.10 5.30 6.40 6.1 2.28 .94 2.50 2.50 30.1

92-93 CHI 78 78 39.3 .495 .352 .837 1.70 5.00 6.70 5.5 2.83 .78 2.65 2.40 32.6

94-95 CHI 17 17 39.3 .411 .500 .801 1.50 5.40 6.90 5.3 1.76 .76 2.06 2.80 26.9

95-96 CHI 82 82 37.7 .495 .427 .834 1.80 4.80 6.60 4.3 2.20 .51 2.40 2.40 30.4

96-97 CHI 82 82 37.9 .486 .374 .833 1.40 4.50 5.90 4.3 1.71 .54 2.02 1.90 29.6

97-98 CHI 82 82 38.8 .465 .238 .784 1.60 4.20 5.80 3.5 1.72 .55 2.26 1.80 28.7

01-02 WAS 60 53 34.9 .416 .189 .790 .80 4.80 5.70 5.2 1.42 .43 2.70 2.00 22.9

02-03 WAS 82 67 37.0 .445 .291 .821 .90 5.20 6.10 3.8 1.50 .48 2.11 2.10 20.0

CAREER 1,072 1,039 38.3 .497 .327 .835 1.60 4.70 6.20 5.3 2.35 .83 2.73 2.60 30.1

http://www.nba.com/history/players/jordan_stats.html

also, looking at the most important numbers... playoff stats, here is how they compare.

Jordan Playoff stats- 179 179 41.8 .487 .332 .828 1.70 4.70 6.40 5.7 2.10 .88 3.05 3.00 33.4

Bryan playoff stats- 119 4556 2694 22.6 969 2233 .434 635 802 .792 121 375 .323 138 439 577 4.8 528 4.4 161 89 319

You can sift through and decipher them on your own but obviously jordan has the better numbers.

froosbabba wrote:

kobe is not in jordan's league.

Look, I'm sorry, but this is not rocket science.

Personally, I never said that Kobe was just as good as Jordan defensively (and btw, you can not exclude Washington). However, your cleverly worded post implied that Kobe is not a great defender, and that is simply wrong.

froosbabba wrote:

if you just want to use all defensive squads as a measuring stick, which is wrong... cuz again, the voting for these are subjective

Yes, it is... just like your rather biased opinion happens to be. However, I'm confident that most people would trust the consensus opinion gathered from the 29 NBA head coaches who compete against him throughout the year over yours.

Fact: he finished with more votes for the NBA All-Defensive team than any other guard in the league. That classifies him as a great defender. To imply otherwise would be naive (to put it politely).

froosbabba wrote:

and to further add to the argument, since your arguing seems to imply you feel kobe is the same caliber player as jordan...

LoL! I hope that you're having fun putting words in my mouth.

My arguing merely implies that I don't appreciate people whose opinion is SO biased that they will intentionally mislead their audience in order to reinforce their slanted point of view.

Once again, it's not rocket science.

yes my opinion is subjective, just as anyone's. the stats don't lie. and fine, throw jordan's two years at washington's in there... his stats while with washington measure up to kobe's careers stats. and, funny, this whole argument started by YOU putting words in MY mouth. i never said kobe wasn't a good defender. i just happened to state jordan was a GREAT defender. you put that into the context you chose to put it into. and the fact that you are taking such offense to those words means you are obviously a bryant fan... if you aren't, then you just like wasting your time which is stupid, to put it unpolitely.

also, you stated "i never said kobe was as good as jordan DEFENSIVELY"... implying you think he is jordan's equal offensively. while you are entitled to your opinion, i ask you to look at career scoring and shooting percentages in order to justify such a belief.

marijuologist wrote:

I think Rex Chapman is the greatest player in NBA history

If I need a turnaround, fade away 42 footer with the time running out, Chapman's my guy!!!

I always love it when threads become pissing matches between two people over something other than the original thread topic. Why don't you just trade phone numbers or pick a place to settle it?

i actually was just posting under two names... bored.