Is Coe better than Ovett/Cram,Jim Ryun better than Steve Scott, Aouita better than ELG, Gebreselasie better than Bekele?

slaps said:

Yet you have Olympic gold medalists like Ron Delaney, Kip Keino, Pekka Vassala, John Walker, and Peter Rono. Where do they stand in this question?

Only Walker had a WR.

If you're talking about runners that won Olympic gold but disappeared shortly after, or weren't major presences beforehand, I don't quite think that Keino and Walker belong.

First off, Keino does have some world records - the 3000 and the 5000, both set in 1965. Second of all, he won four medals - two golds (1968 1500, 1972 steeple) and two silvers (1968 5000, 1972 1500). He was anything but an insignificant runner, let alone a flash in the pan.

As for Walker, he was the dominant miler for a couple of years. In 1975, his record-setting year, he won something like 35 races, only losing one to Rod Dixon. He also had the WR in the 2000, and was the first man to run 100 sub-four miles. He had a world-class miling career from the early 70s to the late 80s. The only reason that he might be regarded lightly was that his main rival, Filbert Bayi, was kept out of the 76 Olympics by the boycott - but it's worthwhile to note that a front-runner like Bayi might have set it up better for Walker.

Would anyone here trust the430miler to fetch them a cup of coffee? Just imagine if he grew up to be a doctor, or fireman, or gasp, a teacher?

Hold me. I'm scared.

this is in response to "cram it"s post about el g's olympic gold meaning much more to him than his wr.

i do not even know where to start with this statement, othet than it must be complete sarcasm. whoever said that must just be trying to get under my skin, and it worked.

sure, he has happy when he went double gold at the olympics by also winning the 5,000meters. but this type of joy isnt even in the same league as when he set the wr.

you cant possibly be telling me that today, if he had to choose, he would choose to have an olympic gold medal over a WORLD RECORD??!!! this must be sarcasm.

dude, i already proved that you are an idiot on the tergat thread, do i have to do it again on this one?

wisdomsitsinplaces wrote:

But when it came to the Olympics Ryun has to win because he did end up with a Silver medal in 68.

i agree with most of your points, especially that the 430 miler needs to go, but not quite this one. Scott was held out by the 80 boycott. That isn't his fault, he was a contender that year.

the430miler wrote:

this is in response to "cram it"s post about el g's olympic gold meaning much more to him than his wr.

sure, he has happy when he went double gold at the olympics by also winning the 5,000meters. but this type of joy isnt even in the same league as when he set the wr.

He wasn't just "happy", he was overwhelmed.

I have video of both races. After the world record, his smiling and happy. After the Olympic gold he is so overwhelmed with joy he is crying.

you cant possibly be telling me that today, if he had to choose, he would choose to have an olympic gold medal over a WORLD RECORD??!!! this must be sarcasm.

Yes I am definitely telling you that. World records come and go. Olympic gold is forever.

Someone has pointed out that you are a troll. I don't know much about you but think I'll have to agree. No one could possibly be such a complete moron as to think that a world record would matter more than Olympic gold

Because you are completely impervious to logic, I too believe that you are a troll, but I'll debate this with you anyway. Times are obviously very important in running, but so is winning. When determining which runner is better, both times and winning records must be taken into account. You defended your assertion that Cram is better than Coe, and Tergat is better than Geb by comparing their times, and ignoring other factors such as World Championship golds, win-loss records, and Olympic golds. But even when these facors are ignored and we only compare times, your argument still does not hold water. Geb has faster prs than Tergat in the 3k, 5k, 10k, half marathon, 20k and several other events, and Coe has a faster 800 pr than Cram. Cram's 1500 pr is only .1 seconds faster than Coe's pr, while Coe's 800 pr is over a full second faster than Cram's pr.

well, whatever. i cant believe you think the olypics are more important than a wr.

i often sit at my house at and mentally ponder how a a human being can run 4 laps under 56 second 400 pace; and i am constantly baffled at how it was done.

the mile wr, or any other wr, means MUCH more than a win at the olymipc.

let me out it in laments terms for you.....

which is better.......

running the fastest time ever by a human being ?

or running faster than other people in your race at the olympics???

seems like a no-brainer to me. obviously the wr is the answer.

i always respect other people opinions, because i know that runners/posters on this site come in all different shapes and sizes, ages, beliefs, status, competitve vs non, etc.....

i believe the majority of letsrun posters are middle aged-males who are semi-competitive and run local weekend 5ks.

my status as a competive youth runner makes things more clear. its all about TIME. TIME defines pace and how fast the race was ran. im not sure about your age or competitive status, but none of that seems relevant when stating that a WORLD RECORD is obsolete to a victory at the olympics. that statement is just profound and uncomprehensible.

i think this guy is for real. nobody could make up stuff like this. unbelievable as it sounds, the430miler believes what he says.

Here's a situation for you, would you rather run a 4:15 mile early in the season then make it to states and only get 6th or so? Or would you rather run a 4:20 but you would win states? Pretty obvious to me, state title. You can set a WR anytime, Olympic gold is this sports biggest stage and it only comes once every 4 years.

There are not likely to be any world records at the Olympics because everyone has to go through a bunch of qualifying rounds. It makes the Olympics different from the typical mile race with pacers.

Which is more important? It's really hard to compare the two. I think it is a matter of opinion. Sometimes the runner that is favored or world record holder in the Olympics is not the winner. They have to train differently to be able to run the qualifying rounds and race the final. It takes a bit of luck also not to get caught up in a qualifying round that is to quick but that's beside the point.

I wonder which one El G is more proud of? Is he known more for his double win at the Olympics or his world record? His double win at the Olympics can never be taken away. I think you can look at it both ways depending on your point of view as to what makes a better athlete.

Time is not always the measure especially considering the distance track world records at this point can't fall at the Olympics.

yes. i am for real.

and i also realize that the above meant no disrespect to Hiccam or the country of Morrocco when he said the wr wasnt near as important.

its not like Hiccam is sitting in his palace in Morrocco reading this thread on letsrun.com; but if he heard the remark that "his olympic medal is more important than his world record" im sure he would take that as a stab/offensive remark against him and his country.

you have no idea the ammount of work it took to accomplish the world record mile (heck, neither do i. but i can only imagine)

i think the previous statement made about his achievements makes him look like "just a champion" and not the truth of being the greatest miler who ever lived.

the only reason he was crying on the olympic track was probably because he failed to set the world record WHILE winning the olympics. he has happy that he won the olympics, but probably stunned that he was just off the world record mark while doing so.

his world record mile is his greatest accomplishment, along with the country of morroccos greatest accomplishment; because people look at world record and see where that person is from who set it.

once again, it was disrespectfull to Hiccam AND Morrocco to say that his win in the olympic race is MORE important than his life dream/accomplishment of SETTING THE WORLD RECORD.

People, he's a troll, please don't encourage him.

This is taken from kingofthemile.com, quotes from El G after winning the 1500 in Athens.

Hicham El Guerrouj quotes after the race:

"THIS IS THE GREATEST DAY OF MY LIFE. I can’t express my feelings. I'm living a moment of glory. I’ve had a horrible year, extremely difficult. Now at last I am Olympic champion. This medal is for the King and my little daughter, Hiba. I lost in Sydney because I trained too hard, I ran out of energy in my legs. But this time I had the extra gas. I simply did not want to lose. The last few metres I just refused to let him go. I was so desperate for the title that I had to hold on such was the desire in me to win. Four years ago, I was crying tears of sadness, and today I'm crying tears of joy. I'm like a five-year-old, living something wonderful with the people I love and people who love me. I had some very difficult moments this season. That's the kind of test that makes great athletes. There were times I didn't even know if I was going to the Olympics, and I was only ranked eighth in the world. But I eventually managed to come back, thanks to my determination, and the support of my family, coach and federation. I just cannot express my joy. When we went through the 800m mark at over 2 minutes, I knew that the pace was slow and I had to speed up. I went up a gear at 400m out. I sped up again with 300m to go but each time Lagat came back at me. In the homestretch when he came back at me again, it felt like an avalanche. In the last 50 meters, the first thing I thought about was Sydney because Noah Ngeny overtook me, I just didn't have any more energy. But today, when Lagat caught me, I managed to find the strength for the last kick. I've had some really difficult moments in my career. I came from very far down. You might say I'm very deserving, maybe more than most because I've had a very difficult time between Atlanta and today, and now I've come to a city where the Games were revived in 1896 and it's history that is being recorded here. I am very happy for my friends, for my family and the king. I thank the Moroccan and Arabic people for their support. I'm so happy. The race was very difficult. I started powerfully. I hope to do the same in the 5000m. This year was really a tough year, a hard year, an Olympic year. I won the race, but I have to say that I really respect Lagat and the level he's been running at this year. It's great for everybody that he's doing so well and It's great for the sport. It is finally complete."

Notice he doesn't say this is the second best day of my life behind my WR day, he says it is the best. Please stop being so stupid, Olympic gold means so much more than any WR does.

the430miler wrote:

you have no idea the ammount of work it took to accomplish the world record mile (heck, neither do i. but i can only imagine)

Can you imaginge the work it takes to prepare for a race that is four years away? You have to be on the top of your game ONE DAY every four years for your chance at glory. El G doesn't break the WR some meet, big deal. He can recover and try again in a few weeks. He bombs in the Olympics, thats four years of waiting for another chance if you even get that chance. You continue to not understand what comepetitive running is about, please discontinue from posting here.

You cant possibly belive what you just said 430. You cannot possibly belive that right now, Webb is better than Jim Ruyn, just because his PR is faster. Jim Ryun is one of the greatest runners ever, not just in american history. He has an Olympic silver. It took Kip Keino, and a high altitude city to beat him at the 68 Olympics. I suppose you are also going to tell me that Asafa Powell is a better athlete than Jesse Owens simply because is 100 time is faster. PRs cannot determine who is better when the athletes are form different eras.

and to say that a WR is more important than an olympic gold is ridiculous. WRs get broken, but you are an Oly. champ forever. Look at 1954. the Mile world record was broken, then broken, then broken again. Both Bannister and Landy can call themselves former world record holders. But only one of them can call himself the 1954 Empire Games champion.

and one more thing. Tergat is never going to be better than Geb, get over it. Geb spanked his ass twice in the Olympics.

bryn_r wrote:

People, he's a troll, please don't encourage him.

Why because his opinion is differnt than yours?

you can have this argument for ever. I think that Olympic medals, WR's, and to a lessor extent world championship gold all have an impact on how great a runner is/was.

If you had a WR and olympic gold then you are one of the greatest.

Although I can see a case for bekele here is who i think is greater. Coe (WR and gold), Ryun (WR and silver), El G (WR and gold), Geb (WR and Gold)

In a world record you are usually only competing against yourself. In the olympics you compete against others. You could be good at one and not the other. That is why I thnk runners should be judged by both. I think that most letsrunners would agree