Euro Trials: Sefton Park, Liverpool

Nobody has been told they have a place on the U23 team if they want it. UKA will pick the strongest possible senior team, then the 6 best U23 from the rest. Yelling, Pavey and Edwards are the only pre-selected women.

Well thats not what is being said up here!!

"And Felicity's performance has brought an immediate reward, with the GB selectors naming her in the Under-23 team for the European Cross-Country Championships in Italy next month."

The above quote was taken from athletics section in The Newcastle Evening Chronicle last night (the full article can be viewed at

www.icnewcastle.co.uk

thrity something wrote:

u23 wrote:

no its not a joke you fool!

as there is such a high drop out rate from junior to senior age group, the new u23 event can provide an incentive to keep these people in the sport at a very difficult time in their young lives.

First, they are not that young. They are grown men and women, quicker they realise that the better.

Second, why is it such a difficult a time in your life? Damn wish I was still that age.

Having an U23 age group is extremely helpful. It helps transition juniors to seniors. It's lot like there are that many U23 meets. These are mainly championships and championship qualifiers. Most of the time the U23s are competing with the seniors, but having a few U23 Track and Cross Country Championships gives these youngsters something to aim for at a time when they are making a difficult transition. If you don't believe it's a big jump, compare top junior times with top senior times at championships - with the rare exception there's a significant gap. Also in the UK/Europe there is nothing like the NCAA system which provides an equally good tranistion from being a good junior to being a good senior. U23 age group helps to bridge this gap.

It's easy to criticise this U23 lark on the grounds that posters above have done. It came about via the EAA so we can assume that a majority of the leading Euro nations are behind it, and - an educated guess here - I'd expect that many of their endurance decision makers have thier heritage in the days when Africa wasn't so dominant and Euro men at the sharp end at longer distances ran a bit quicker than they do now.

No one is suggesting that a euro U23 XC champs is the sole factor in getting more (or indeed any new) Euro long distance guys towards World Class and no doubt everyone is involved of what the other factors are, but at least it's worth trying SOMETHING different, backed up by other initiatives.

I suppose it's possible that leading Euro U23 distance guys might delude themselves into their global status but it would be surprising and a bit head-in-the-sand if they did so - even if athletics media bods needing to puff things up try to persuade us otherwise.

no one complains about the white jersey being awarded in the tour de france for the leading under 25!

Thank you, I see where you are coming from, but Bill is wrong.

The chairman of selectors is out of the country, no selection meetings have been held since the weekend, and none will now until the races at Liverpool are over. I suspect that the young lady will be invited to the cross country squad meeting at West Bromwich next weekend when she can have a chat with the people concerned. In the meantime tell McGuirk to get his facts straight. She might well get picked, but she isnt yet.

U23s:

1. It is probably the easiest time of your life to train. Most of this age group are at university and attending a couple of hours of lectures a day. This allows adequate time for twice a day training, plenty of sleep and (if you really want to be successful) the choice/opportunity to live the right lifestyle.

2. This age group encurages juniors to think they have years to make it still and stops them from shooting to be successful seniors and run senior qualifying times.

3. Look at the UK all-time lists at

http://www.gbrathletics.com

. I only looked at the 800/1500 (I'll admit there is a legit reason for 10k/marathon at U23 in terms of no-one being successful at a young age but that is cancelled out by the fact U23s should be developing 1500/5000 speed and any races over the longer distances should be infrequent and no need to be at the championship level - which is so weak in comparison to senior 10ks at the Worlds it acts as a step back from reality, plus a demotivator when the level needed to step up comes) but you'll find the vast majority ran thei best times between 21 and 24. There is a myth that U23s think they'll keep improving. This will only occur through hard, intelligent training and no more growth spurts.

In other words lets get rid of the U23 age group before it 'damages' another generation of athletes like it did those born 1978-1985.

u23freebee wrote:

Having an U23 age group is extremely helpful. It helps transition juniors to seniors. It's lot like there are that many U23 meets. These are mainly championships and championship qualifiers. Most of the time the U23s are competing with the seniors, but having a few U23 Track and Cross Country Championships gives these youngsters something to aim for at a time when they are making a difficult transition. If you don't believe it's a big jump, compare top junior times with top senior times at championships - with the rare exception there's a significant gap. Also in the UK/Europe there is nothing like the NCAA system which provides an equally good tranistion from being a good junior to being a good senior. U23 age group helps to bridge this gap.

I never said there isn't a big jump from junior to senior, just don't see why hiding from it for three years is a help.

You make it sound like a great success story, exactly who has it helped towards the senior ranks? All junior results, bar none, are irrelevant. Why extend the period of irrelevance for another three years?

Obviously not you because you are too old and bitter.

It's a stepping stone and a step in the right direction to provide support to promising juniors coming up, and keeping them in the sport. There is a lot more that needs to be done to keep them in the sport then adding a couple of easier competitions a year in there. I think it's a mistake to think that U23 lulls this age group into a false sense of security. It's not being touted as the pinnacle of achivement, but it provides international competion and the experience that goes with that. That's invaluable.

The point is a huge majority of U23s, whether you like or not, will peak (or are only a year or two away from peaking) while in this age group and encouraging them to think of this as a stepping stone may stop many of them reaching the level they have the potential to and should be aspiring to. It's already happened to a generation of British athletes.

So what if they peak at that age? If they peak, they peak - nobody is going to run an U23 Champs if they could make it to the Senior championship. Conversly if at their peak - they only got to U23 Champs, well that's all they could accomplish and they got to experience an international championship.

Perhaps the 10 years/10,000 hours of training which underpins LTAD across virtually all disciplines of all sports has some relevance. The 1980s GB greats of middle distance had, one way or another, been training in athletics for 10 years by the time they were 23ish. Other high achievers (albeit not OG medallists) who come to mind weren't even in the sport at 23. As it's a topical eg mentioned above, the Durham Uni runner who, if the AW reports are broadly accurate, has immense untapped potential, would in theory be some years short of her peak, at whatever turns out to be her optimum distance, at age 23.

Perhaps if a generation of Euro U23 comps don't show any evidence of performance improvement in Europe the EAA will ditch them - it wouldn't make sense in terms of resources, logistics, costs etc to keep them going otherwise - and if media coverage across Europe of U23 comps mirrors that in the UK I doubt that commercially it is exactly a big revenue earner for anyone.

lets all see how the u23 race goes first before bitching about it...

anyway moving on to the team itself, whos likely to make it?

UKA were not widely enthusiastic about this age group, but in the end its up to EAA. We should not forget that for most euro nations endurance has become a big problem and this is an EAA project that may or may not have legs.

As mentioned before a number of UK u23 athletes are attracted to this event and if this ensures their continued participation then it cant be bad.

I am old as well but to suggest that we didnt need these age groups 20 years ago is only really admitting that you dont understand how the sport has changed since then.

I agree with your prediction mostly except i think pepper stands a better chance than timmins. Also i've heard that hickey has been injured

I'm not sure where I stand on the under 23 issue.

I do think that it allows athletes more championship experience allowing them to perform when they make senior championships - see Rimmer, Ellis, Lyne, Farah for example. Three medalists in their first senior competitions. It is clear that they have benefitted from their u20 / u23 championship experiences.

I also think it gives 20 / 21 yr olds somthing to aim for whilst they are still developing physically into adults is a good step. Not all athletes are capable of putting in the miles necessary to be a top distance athlete at 20.

Something Nic Bideau picked up on a few months ago was that he put his athletes into races where they can win, rather than flogging them against competition they cannot cope with. I suppose an u23 championship will allow messer's Vernon, Hickey (sorry don't really know all the names) to compete on a level where they can be competitive rather than putting them up against athletes of the likes of Lebid, De le Ossa (sp?).

I am slightly concerned that it maybe another championship that doesn't really hold too much prestige may be saturising competition and adds to the ever increasing length / size of the XC season.

so predictions:

Mens: Farah, Riley, Vernon, Warmby, Thompson, McCormick

Should win team event.

U23: ?

Womens: m?

That team might go close to winning, but more likely to get a team place.

Women Yelling x 2, Pavey - then I dont know. Same team chances as men.

U23 - men, be interesting to see what happens at NCAA's

Russia should destroy gb at this level