Marathon - where am I going wrong?

Thanks, this is a fair point. Would 40mpw be considered a minimum base for marathon training? Or is it a ratio to something else e.g. peak mileage when in a training cycle?

First of all, Marathon running is hard. No matter what some people say here. To get it right on race day and deal with the weather, course and whatnot. Even 2 minutes behind goal feels like a total failure.

The only thing I can see is that 25miler just 3 weeks before the actual race. In my opinion, not so strong Marathon runners (over 3 hours) should not do longer long runs than 18 miles. There is an over emphasis in long runs in the running community.

Maybe try to do more shorter races 10k and HM before the next Marathon and run them harder. Maybe you just need to learn to push harder at the end. I knew a Marathon coach who had his athletes always push the last 5k in the long run hard, in order to simulate Marathon day.

But don't beat yourself up over it at the end it's just a Marathon and you can always try another one.

Good luck!

still not clear if op tapered brah ...u gota hit the taper brah

I chose that number just based on what I think would be reasonable given what you're able to handle in marathon training. Plus I think for someone to more than double their mileage from year to year is quite the jump. Not so much from a physical standpoint, but the time commitment is still significant.

To answer your question I would say truly being comfortable running 40mpw heading into a training plan would be the minimum where I think it becomes reasonable to expect your shorter race times will line up as equivalent to your marathon time. Of course, the faster you get the more that minimum increases. But no reason to get the cart ahead of the horse.

So right on pace through 20 miles. What about salt/sugar intake? Seems like you still just bonked even though the carb intake looks pretty good. Are you drinking just water with the gels? Maybe a carb drink and/or salt tabs would help.

Easy to say you left the race in training with the 25 miler. 20s/mile is aggressive but folks should remember that your marathon goal was conservative. Your half predicts more like 7:30 pace for a marathon so the long run would be 50s/mile slower than that. It's still aggressive. I would cap at 35k in your next build. You did the training & don't have anything to prove 3 weeks out.

I’d do McMillan’s recommended marathon recovery, build up again out of that, and do a plan like the one you did in a similar way again, except don’t run a half all about five weeks out (unless you really think you’ve been improved substantially and want to get a good fitness check, but then you need to recover well enough from it), and cap that last long run — or any of your longest runs — at 22 miles. For that long run three weeks out, I wouldn’t do anything more aggressive than going nice and easy for the first 11, then maybe gradually progressing to whatever feels smooth around 8:10 or 8:15 in the second half.

of course, I think you could be fine on around 45 miles per week average and a max of around 55 or so, but you might be able to handle that mileage now that you’ve gone through it for a cycle.

And then, as long as you stay injury-free and have good weather for your next marathon, enjoy running 3:15 to 3:20 in the fall.

I dont think the op tapered

Hello Boston 2024!

Just because no one has actually said it yet: No, you have not realised your potential yet, dont throw it away.

Did you build a good amount of pace into some longer runs? You obviously have plenty of speed, but can you do it on tired legs? I love putting a good chuck of MP, or just slightly faster, in my long runs. I would much rather peak at 20 miles with miles 8-18 at MP (the rest proper easy) than 25 miles at kinda close to MP.

As pointed out, your base from offseason could probably be a bit more too. If you hit the block just needing to build MP condition rather than massively ramping up distance and pace, you can probably be more aggressive in your build.

A 25 miler is too long three weeks out. Instead run for 2 and a half hours. However far that gets you.

Too many factors to impact pace. I always say you should feel like you’re really holding back the first ten miles. Not passing anyone those first ten.

20 miles with 8-12 at MP is good 3-5 weeks out. OP, do not do 18 at MP. There are those for whom that's a fine workout. They are relatively rare, though.

I would cap your longest training run at 3 hours, which would take you to around 22 miles at 8:20 pace. Anything longer than 3 hours and the risk of injury or putting yourself into a hole increases too much.

Without knowing the rest of your training, my other general recommendations would be:

1. A midweek run of 11-15 miles at 80% of goal pace

2. Long goal pace tempos every other week, starting at 6 miles and building up to 10/12 (whichever you can manage).

Those should be staples to build up fatigue so that you go into every Sunday long run on tired legs. You need to simulate moving while fatigued to try and replicate how it feels at the end of the marathon.

One final thing that a lot of people overlook (and I'm not saying this is you): how many stops are you taking during training runs? Are you getting a big differential between your run time and elapsed time?

This is my thought too, overcooked by the training plan. A friend of mine is using the Mcmillan plan and it seems crazy hard. 25 mile long run seems excessive for a non-elite, especially at just 20s over marathon goal pace.

So since OP is probably fit for 7:30 pace, you’d just run these at a 9:20-ish average? When I was running 7:30 marathon pace, I’d start midweek long runs 9:00-9:15 and after a few miles would progress very gradually to wind up somewhere in the 8:20s. It tended to feel good, and my workout day and long run on those weeks tended to be fine.

Was that too fast, though?

That was probably fine if you're progressing gradually. I guess you averaged 8:40-8:50 pace for those runs? 80% of goal pace is one of those markers that Canova suggests as a useful pace for long runs. I found that it fell into a nice zone of being hard enough to get a good aerobic benefit but not so hard that it wipes me out for a workout within the next day or two. But it's just a rule of thumb and others might get more out of a different approach

Some advice; try in training to get new fast carbs from drinking sports drink and stay out of gels.Further on you should try a new training system much more effective than McMillan's ' copy and paste' far from optimal individualized program.Get you a very good online coach who follow up your training with no limit stand by contact. With your 1:34 half you should run at least a sub 3:20 marathon and not a 3:44. Good luck!

My bad if that is how that reads. I meant that I do from mile 8 to mile 18 at MP, for a total of 10 miles of pace, later in the run.

did you taper?

Get a coach.