Being a power hitter isn’t a requirement for being great. He did win 5 Silver Slugger awards.
And 5 gold glove awards too for that matter...though the Jeter haters will say he didn't deserve them. I will admit that subjective awards don't hold as much water as objective ones. I don't base Jeter's greatness on his fielding ability. He was an offensive force. One of the best to ever play.
Jeter also had no pop and was a below average fielder. His lifetime slugging average was only .440. Rose has the most hits but I don think that makes him the best player ever.
While not a great fielder, he made some great plays when it counted- he was a clutch performer.
CORRECT! And I'm not a Yankees fan or not even necessarily a fan of Derek Jeter. I just think he doesn't get the credit he deserves.
Being a power hitter isn’t a requirement for being great. He did win 5 Silver Slugger awards.
And 5 gold glove awards too for that matter...though the Jeter haters will say he didn't deserve them. I will admit that subjective awards don't hold as much water as objective ones. I don't base Jeter's greatness on his fielding ability. He was an offensive force. One of the best to ever play.
You don’t have to be a Jeter hater to believe he didn’t deserve those GGs:
While not a great fielder, he made some great plays when it counted- he was a clutch performer.
CORRECT! And I'm not a Yankees fan or not even necessarily a fan of Derek Jeter. I just think he doesn't get the credit he deserves.
I'm not a Yankee fan either though I live in New York City. He was a leader, a clutch performer, a winner who handled the pressure magnificently unlike other players who were chewed up and left dejected.
And 5 gold glove awards too for that matter...though the Jeter haters will say he didn't deserve them. I will admit that subjective awards don't hold as much water as objective ones. I don't base Jeter's greatness on his fielding ability. He was an offensive force. One of the best to ever play.
You don’t have to be a Jeter hater to believe he didn’t deserve those GGs:
Did you know that Rafael Palmeiro won a GG in 1999, even though he was primarily a DH and only played 28 games at first.
Did YOU know that Jeter had fewer career errors at SS than Ozzie Smith? Yeah, I know, you'll say that Jeter couldn't get to balls...he was just a statue and only caught balls hit right at him. BS.
Jeter was just fine as a SS, and his offensive prowess more than made up for any fielding shortfalls.
Did you know that Rafael Palmeiro won a GG in 1999, even though he was primarily a DH and only played 28 games at first.
Did YOU know that Jeter had fewer career errors at SS than Ozzie Smith? Yeah, I know, you'll say that Jeter couldn't get to balls...he was just a statue and only caught balls hit right at him. BS.
Jeter was just fine as a SS, and his offensive prowess more than made up for any fielding shortfalls.
Did you know Ozzie Smith has the highest defensive WAR of all time, any position.
I know Flagpole doesn't believe in WAR. He's one of those gray haired talent scouts from Moneyball who intuitively knows who's good and who isn't.
Did YOU know that Jeter had fewer career errors at SS than Ozzie Smith? Yeah, I know, you'll say that Jeter couldn't get to balls...he was just a statue and only caught balls hit right at him. BS.
Jeter was just fine as a SS, and his offensive prowess more than made up for any fielding shortfalls.
Did you know Ozzie Smith has the highest defensive WAR of all time, any position.
I know Flagpole doesn't believe in WAR. He's one of those gray haired talent scouts from Moneyball who intuitively knows who's good and who isn't.
WAR is a flawed stat, and defensive WAR isn't much better. Cal Ripken, Jr. has the 4th best defensive WAR of all time. Proof that that's a bogus stat. Buddy Bell better than Scott Rolen? Nonsense.
Regarding WAR, first of all, different groups calculate it differently...that's crap. If the stat nerds are going to preach it, someone needs to create THE standard. Secondly, when even one of them says that Bobby Grich and Derek Jeter have basically the same WAR, then there's something seriously wrong with what it is measuring. It's meaningless.
Batting average, hits, doubles, triples, stolen bases, HRs, RBIs, slugging percentage, OBP, MAYBE stolen bases, MAYBE walks and HBP if you want to take OBP a little further...that's really about it.
Bobby Grich should NEVER be in the same sentence with Derek Jeter unless that sentence is, "Bobby Grich wasn't anywhere NEAR as good as Derek Jeter despite what that stupid WAR stat says."
Did you know Ozzie Smith has the highest defensive WAR of all time, any position.
I know Flagpole doesn't believe in WAR. He's one of those gray haired talent scouts from Moneyball who intuitively knows who's good and who isn't.
WAR is a flawed stat, and defensive WAR isn't much better. Cal Ripken, Jr. has the 4th best defensive WAR of all time. Proof that that's a bogus stat. Buddy Bell better than Scott Rolen? Nonsense.
Regarding WAR, first of all, different groups calculate it differently...that's crap. If the stat nerds are going to preach it, someone needs to create THE standard. Secondly, when even one of them says that Bobby Grich and Derek Jeter have basically the same WAR, then there's something seriously wrong with what it is measuring. It's meaningless.
Batting average, hits, doubles, triples, stolen bases, HRs, RBIs, slugging percentage, OBP, MAYBE stolen bases, MAYBE walks and HBP if you want to take OBP a little further...that's really about it.
Bobby Grich should NEVER be in the same sentence with Derek Jeter unless that sentence is, "Bobby Grich wasn't anywhere NEAR as good as Derek Jeter despite what that stupid WAR stat says."
Quit saying WAR is meaningless. Take ESPN 100 greatest players of all time. Compare to players with 100 highest WAR of all time. The overlap might be 95%.
CORRECT! And I'm not a Yankees fan or not even necessarily a fan of Derek Jeter. I just think he doesn't get the credit he deserves.
I'm not a Yankee fan either though I live in New York City. He was a leader, a clutch performer, a winner who handled the pressure magnificently unlike other players who were chewed up and left dejected.
Well... I am a fan, but those aspects are over-rated too. I watched him for 20 seasons, and "The Legend" has far surpassed what he actually was on the field. Never the best player on his own team. Heck, for the last 60% of his career, he wasn't even the best shortstop on his own team. A "leader" would have moved to 3B in 2004. A "leader" wouldn't have insisted on batting 2nd and playing SS his last 2 seasons, when it was obvious he shouldn't have been doing either. Missed the playoffs in both those seasons, FWIW. Captain for 12 seasons, best roster in MLB for at least 8 or 9 of them... one WS win.
Loved him as a player - played hard, kept his nose clean, showed up every day - but the four or five all-star sticks in the line-up behind him every season, and Mariano in the pen, were what drove the Yankees' success. No opposing manager ever went into a series against the Yankees with his first thought being "how do I keep Derek Jeter from beating us?" So the "pressure" aspect is way overstated.
I'm not a Yankee fan either though I live in New York City. He was a leader, a clutch performer, a winner who handled the pressure magnificently unlike other players who were chewed up and left dejected.
Well... I am a fan, but those aspects are over-rated too. I watched him for 20 seasons, and "The Legend" has far surpassed what he actually was on the field. Never the best player on his own team. Heck, for the last 60% of his career, he wasn't even the best shortstop on his own team. A "leader" would have moved to 3B in 2004. A "leader" wouldn't have insisted on batting 2nd and playing SS his last 2 seasons, when it was obvious he shouldn't have been doing either. Missed the playoffs in both those seasons, FWIW. Captain for 12 seasons, best roster in MLB for at least 8 or 9 of them... one WS win.
Loved him as a player - played hard, kept his nose clean, showed up every day - but the four or five all-star sticks in the line-up behind him every season, and Mariano in the pen, were what drove the Yankees' success. No opposing manager ever went into a series against the Yankees with his first thought being "how do I keep Derek Jeter from beating us?" So the "pressure" aspect is way overstated.
If opposing managers kept him off base maybe the Yankees wouldn't have won that often. Don't underestimate glue guys; great managers and coaches don't.
Did you know Ozzie Smith has the highest defensive WAR of all time, any position.
I know Flagpole doesn't believe in WAR. He's one of those gray haired talent scouts from Moneyball who intuitively knows who's good and who isn't.
WAR is a flawed stat, and defensive WAR isn't much better. Cal Ripken, Jr. has the 4th best defensive WAR of all time. Proof that that's a bogus stat. Buddy Bell better than Scott Rolen? Nonsense.
Regarding WAR, first of all, different groups calculate it differently...that's crap. If the stat nerds are going to preach it, someone needs to create THE standard. Secondly, when even one of them says that Bobby Grich and Derek Jeter have basically the same WAR, then there's something seriously wrong with what it is measuring. It's meaningless.
Batting average, hits, doubles, triples, stolen bases, HRs, RBIs, slugging percentage, OBP, MAYBE stolen bases, MAYBE walks and HBP if you want to take OBP a little further...that's really about it.
Bobby Grich should NEVER be in the same sentence with Derek Jeter unless that sentence is, "Bobby Grich wasn't anywhere NEAR as good as Derek Jeter despite what that stupid WAR stat says."
Grich is one of the most underated players of all time and Jeter is one of the most overrated.
For some context, Grich has a higher career OPS+ (125 to 115).
Grich also had a much higher defensive WAR (16.8 to -9.4).
Grich played in a pitcher's era and had roughly the same OBP as Jeter and averaged more HR per 162 games over his career.
Curt Schilling has the highest WAR of any player not in the Hall of Fame that was not involved in PEDs or gambling.
Have heard that Curt Schilling was probably one of the most disliked players in MLB history. All about promoting himself at the expense of the team, treated team employees, beat writers, staff poorly, just in general kind of an ass all wrapped in a holier than thou Christian facade.
Not sure about the counts, but I've been told that what is keeping him from getting in is that he played for too many teams and lost those votes.
WAR is a flawed stat, and defensive WAR isn't much better. Cal Ripken, Jr. has the 4th best defensive WAR of all time. Proof that that's a bogus stat. Buddy Bell better than Scott Rolen? Nonsense.
Regarding WAR, first of all, different groups calculate it differently...that's crap. If the stat nerds are going to preach it, someone needs to create THE standard. Secondly, when even one of them says that Bobby Grich and Derek Jeter have basically the same WAR, then there's something seriously wrong with what it is measuring. It's meaningless.
Batting average, hits, doubles, triples, stolen bases, HRs, RBIs, slugging percentage, OBP, MAYBE stolen bases, MAYBE walks and HBP if you want to take OBP a little further...that's really about it.
Bobby Grich should NEVER be in the same sentence with Derek Jeter unless that sentence is, "Bobby Grich wasn't anywhere NEAR as good as Derek Jeter despite what that stupid WAR stat says."
Grich is one of the most underated players of all time and Jeter is one of the most overrated.
For some context, Grich has a higher career OPS+ (125 to 115).
Grich also had a much higher defensive WAR (16.8 to -9.4).
Grich played in a pitcher's era and had roughly the same OBP as Jeter and averaged more HR per 162 games over his career.
Why are you comparing the stats of a SS to a 2nd baseman? Oh, and Jeter had twice as many hits as Grich.
We’ve had this debate before. Considering how long Major League Baseball has been played, anyone with a top 100 all-time career WAR did something right.
Did you know Ozzie Smith has the highest defensive WAR of all time, any position.
I know Flagpole doesn't believe in WAR. He's one of those gray haired talent scouts from Moneyball who intuitively knows who's good and who isn't.
WAR is a flawed stat, and defensive WAR isn't much better.
In what way do you believe WAR is flawed? Let's look into why Ozzie Smith's dWAR might be better. Smith averaged 3.46 assists per 9 innings as a shortstop. Jeter averaged 2.56. That's almost one extra ground ball per game that Ozzie got to. I.e. if you replace Ozzie Smith for Jeter at shortstop you're giving up an extra baserunner per game.
Per, FanGraphs, here’s an overall list of fielders who cost their teams the most runs on defense from 2003-2014: Derek Jeter (-152) Prince Fielder (-95) Hanley Ramirez (-73) Yuniesky Betancourt (-66) Dan Uggla (-66)
