Outrageous to not have any work faster than 1500m pace. Milers need to touch on those faster paces.
Who said there isn't work faster than 1500m pace? We used to do 4 x 150 pretty damn near all-out during our warmup phase or even on easy days. They don't have to be a workout - his point is workouts.
I'd agree with Coogan. Too many young coaches are caught up in that double threshold fad, when in reality 90% of the medals at both the NCAA and pro level are achieved with a little tempo work, 5k/10k repeats, and some 1500/800 repeats, rinse - repeat and throw in a long run and hills here and there.
Sure there is nothing wrong with getting some good work close to your lactate threshold and not overdoing things, but throwing away the tried and true principles of a balanced training program will ultimately only hurt the athlete's development. Interesting that after Coogan's athletes won a gold and bronze at world indoors that the distance world isn't banging down his door to learn of this magic secret like they did with the one Norwegian.
Double threshold in some ways is a short cut for so many. It's actaully easy to do and easy to understand. I see young coaches and athletes that spend too much time worshipping Jakob and the so called "Norwegian method" which in fact wasn't their discovery at all but that's another point. Nevertheless, there are no short cuts and you have to do the hard, leg wobbling work required to compete at the top level. But go ahead and keep doing those double LT's you all and keep getting blitzed over that last 200m!
Listen to Citius podcast with Mac Fleet interviewing Mark Coogan and toward the end Mac Fleet asked for him what 3 workouts would he have a 1500m runner do if you could only choose 3. This is what he stated:
*20-25min threshold work +4-6x45 seconds at 1500m pace
*6-7x1k at 5k pace
*12x400 at 1500m pace w/90 seconds recovery if needed split into 2 sets
Do the running nerds of LRC agree?
are those 45 seconds to be done during the threshold work, or tacked on afterwards?
At the end. It's a 300.
Think of 3x10 minute tempo (3x 2 mile) + 4x300 at 1500
Even if I disagree with Coogan I'm going to remember that he has tons more experience and success with the 1500/mile than I do and would probably defer. If someone with comparable success disagreed with him I'd pay attention but on my own I would not argue with Coogan.
Outrageous to not have any work faster than 1500m pace. Milers need to touch on those faster paces.
I opened every season with a mile or 1500. I ran well enough – about 3s slower than a SB, so in the low 4:0x range to open – off of solely threshold, strides, and occasional 10000 pace reps. I was more of a 3000 runner but I never did sustained work at 800 pace and almost nothing at 1500 pace – the longest session I did then was 20x200 at mile.
I'd agree with Coogan. Too many young coaches are caught up in that double threshold fad, when in reality 90% of the medals at both the NCAA and pro level are achieved with a little tempo work, 5k/10k repeats, and some 1500/800 repeats, rinse - repeat and throw in a long run and hills here and there.
Sure there is nothing wrong with getting some good work close to your lactate threshold and not overdoing things, but throwing away the tried and true principles of a balanced training program will ultimately only hurt the athlete's development. Interesting that after Coogan's athletes won a gold and bronze at world indoors that the distance world isn't banging down his door to learn of this magic secret like they did with the one Norwegian.
Double threshold in some ways is a short cut for so many. It's actaully easy to do and easy to understand. I see young coaches and athletes that spend too much time worshipping Jakob and the so called "Norwegian method" which in fact wasn't their discovery at all but that's another point. Nevertheless, there are no short cuts and you have to do the hard, leg wobbling work required to compete at the top level. But go ahead and keep doing those double LT's you all and keep getting blitzed over that last 200m!
I wish I'd seen your post before I wrote mine. There has always been a load of bandwagon jumping in this sport as people come across the hot and trendy approach du jour. So much "scientific" training that someone does is just a slight twist and new name for things that have been done for decades.
Outrageous to not have any work faster than 1500m pace. Milers need to touch on those faster paces.
depends on the runner. some just have other gears and are confident in them- no need to work speed on someone who simply can kick in a race. the 400s make 1500 pace "comfortable" and natural enough. Everything else gives the ability to endure. Makes perfect sense for the runners he coaches actually and they seem to be doing fantastic.
Outrageous to not have any work faster than 1500m pace. Milers need to touch on those faster paces.
depends on the runner. some just have other gears and are confident in them- no need to work speed on someone who simply can kick in a race. the 400s make 1500 pace "comfortable" and natural enough. Everything else gives the ability to endure. Makes perfect sense for the runners he coaches actually and they seem to be doing fantastic.
Someone who "kicks" faster in the final lap of a race isn't necessarily the one with the most leg speed, it's who arrives at the point with the least amount of lactate accumulation. How do you do that? Tons of mileage and lactate threshold work.
I would argue for 30-40 mins of threshold work a hair slower but you are splitting hairs.
You can probably race well from 1500-HM off those workouts just changing the ratio depending on event. 5k guy maybe you are in a cycle of say 2 threshold, 1 5k, 1 1500m. HM? 6:3:1 1500m? 1:1:1. Obviously some periodization also needs to be applied. 12-16 of just doing 2 of those thresholds/week and mileage will get you in pretty solid shape…
Listen to Citius podcast with Mac Fleet interviewing Mark Coogan and toward the end Mac Fleet asked for him what 3 workouts would he have a 1500m runner do if you could only choose 3. This is what he stated:
*20-25min threshold work +4-6x45 seconds at 1500m pace
*6-7x1k at 5k pace
*12x400 at 1500m pace w/90 seconds recovery if needed split into 2 sets
Do the running nerds of LRC agree?
Compare the post from nz1 about training with John Walker in this thread.
Anybody know about John Walker's training? I know he trained under the Lydiard system, but what are the specifics? Also, Lydiard talks about having a 5k and 10k "time trial" every base week in his schedules at a 93% effo...
I'd agree with Coogan. Too many young coaches are caught up in that double threshold fad, when in reality 90% of the medals at both the NCAA and pro level are achieved with a little tempo work, 5k/10k repeats, and some 1500/800 repeats, rinse - repeat and throw in a long run and hills here and there.
Sure there is nothing wrong with getting some good work close to your lactate threshold and not overdoing things, but throwing away the tried and true principles of a balanced training program will ultimately only hurt the athlete's development. Interesting that after Coogan's athletes won a gold and bronze at world indoors that the distance world isn't banging down his door to learn of this magic secret like they did with the one Norwegian.
Double threshold in some ways is a short cut for so many. It's actaully easy to do and easy to understand. I see young coaches and athletes that spend too much time worshipping Jakob and the so called "Norwegian method" which in fact wasn't their discovery at all but that's another point. Nevertheless, there are no short cuts and you have to do the hard, leg wobbling work required to compete at the top level. But go ahead and keep doing those double LT's you all and keep getting blitzed over that last 200m!
I didn't listen to the whole podcast. Did he say something about disliking double thresholds, or did he just not specifically mention them as one of his three favorite workouts for a 1500 runner? I love threshold workouts, but I wouldn't necessarily include them for a 1500 runner over tempo runs, VO2max, and race pace work -- if I had to choose just three workouts. Of course, I don't, and he doesn't. Also not sure he distinguishes tempo from threshold.
(Please let me know if he does specifically say something about threshold workouts!)
Agree. Those workouts, combined with consistency and just staying healthy, allow an athlete to put more on the line in races.
I remember the Ed Eyestone quote from the Mantz and Young 4x3mile workout before trials….he wanted them to dial it back so they “…had room to grow in races..”
I found this interesting as I know of many groups that go the Tuesday/Friday sessions and harder long run on Sunday.
My understanding is the young prodigy Cameron Myers like many of the Australians go Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday but with long run still on Sunday which is similar to Jakob.
Interesting.
According to his Strava data the 2 most frequent sessions of Aussie Distance prodigy Cameron Myers is 4x2k threshold ie 20-25minutes of threshold work on Thursdays and every Saturday Myers does 6x1k but on a 4min cycle so much shorter than the 2:30.
I'd agree with Coogan. Too many young coaches are caught up in that double threshold fad, when in reality 90% of the medals at both the NCAA and pro level are achieved with a little tempo work, 5k/10k repeats, and some 1500/800 repeats, rinse - repeat and throw in a long run and hills here and there.
Sure there is nothing wrong with getting some good work close to your lactate threshold and not overdoing things, but throwing away the tried and true principles of a balanced training program will ultimately only hurt the athlete's development. Interesting that after Coogan's athletes won a gold and bronze at world indoors that the distance world isn't banging down his door to learn of this magic secret like they did with the one Norwegian.
Double threshold in some ways is a short cut for so many. It's actaully easy to do and easy to understand. I see young coaches and athletes that spend too much time worshipping Jakob and the so called "Norwegian method" which in fact wasn't their discovery at all but that's another point. Nevertheless, there are no short cuts and you have to do the hard, leg wobbling work required to compete at the top level. But go ahead and keep doing those double LT's you all and keep getting blitzed over that last 200m!
I didn't listen to the whole podcast. Did he say something about disliking double thresholds, or did he just not specifically mention them as one of his three favorite workouts for a 1500 runner? I love threshold workouts, but I wouldn't necessarily include them for a 1500 runner over tempo runs, VO2max, and race pace work -- if I had to choose just three workouts. Of course, I don't, and he doesn't. Also not sure he distinguishes tempo from threshold.
(Please let me know if he does specifically say something about threshold workouts!)
Coach Coogan said that he doesn't schedule double thresholds for his athletes. He also alluded to threshold effort being about 10 mile race pace, but mentioned that it was effort that mattered most on these, rather than exact pace. He also said that it was possible that Elle gets in some quality doubles, and that if she's in a hurry, she might knock out 5 miles in the AM at about 5:30/mile pace (when she's just scheduled for a more relaxed run), then do a quality session later in the day.
Also, he didn't say he disagreed with double T sessions, but just hasn't / isn't using them. And with the results his athletes are achieving, why change?
Listen to Citius podcast with Mac Fleet interviewing Mark Coogan and toward the end Mac Fleet asked for him what 3 workouts would he have a 1500m runner do if you could only choose 3. This is what he stated:
*20-25min threshold work +4-6x45 seconds at 1500m pace
*6-7x1k at 5k pace
*12x400 at 1500m pace w/90 seconds recovery if needed split into 2 sets
Do the running nerds of LRC agree?
Very traditional 1500m training. To my knowledge, very similar to what they do at Binghamton, and I imagine similar to UNH and UMass as well. Not a surprise that Mackay, Purrier, and MacLean have responded well.
I think double threshold has its place and it's a very efficient method of training for the long term, but for a lot of people traditional middle distance training doing 70-90 mpw at altitude will get their best results with a lot less time.
Listen to Citius podcast with Mac Fleet interviewing Mark Coogan and toward the end Mac Fleet asked for him what 3 workouts would he have a 1500m runner do if you could only choose 3. This is what he stated:
*20-25min threshold work +4-6x45 seconds at 1500m pace
*6-7x1k at 5k pace
*12x400 at 1500m pace w/90 seconds recovery if needed split into 2 sets
Do the running nerds of LRC agree?
i like it, of course with room for individualization. maybe a typical high school runner is something more like:
intermediates to be 20 mins of threshold and 4x30-35@1500
5-6x800 @ 5k pace
8x400@ 1500
I would look at a framework like this over something like a 10 day microcycle. I wonder if he would have his pros doing this all in 1 week?
If traditionally VO2 max intervals are at 2 mile-ish pace, and threshold work at well beyond 10k pace, what is 5-6 x 800 at 5k pace (or his 6-7 x 1k at 5k)? I do see some pros working at that pace a lot. It doesn't really jive with say Daniels type paces. Its not fast enough for intervals, too fast for threshold. All work is probably good, its a continuum, but why the tweener 5k pace?
i like it, of course with room for individualization. maybe a typical high school runner is something more like:
intermediates to be 20 mins of threshold and 4x30-35@1500
5-6x800 @ 5k pace
8x400@ 1500
I would look at a framework like this over something like a 10 day microcycle. I wonder if he would have his pros doing this all in 1 week?
If traditionally VO2 max intervals are at 2 mile-ish pace, and threshold work at well beyond 10k pace, what is 5-6 x 800 at 5k pace (or his 6-7 x 1k at 5k)? I do see some pros working at that pace a lot. It doesn't really jive with say Daniels type paces. Its not fast enough for intervals, too fast for threshold. All work is probably good, its a continuum, but why the tweener 5k pace?
A lot of runners, including elite runners, have found Daniels' paces too fast at I. Why run faster when you can get the same benefit by slowing down to 5k pace? There is nothing magical about 3k vs. 5k pace.
A lot of people are misunderstanding. He’s not saying his athletes only do these 3 workouts, but the question posed has that constraint. Of course his athletes do other workouts.
It was a great listen, good to hear his story and running journey. What an interesting running family.
Couple of things about he training mentioned. This was just a response to a hypothetical question not their set training.
also as with any good coach he does what he understands and sounds like is always open to new ideas
My college coach was extremely strength based, one of our rivals was totally track interval based. We also had pretty similar results (they did have one mega star). My coach explained neither training was wrong and that athletes would run about the same in both systems if they were introduced to them gradually. An athlete that did a hard switch over would probably get hurt due to the dramatic difference.
But if a training plan is consistent, progresses gradually, and the coach can make the proper adjustments there are lots of ways to run fast