Sub 2:40 training advice

I think the key to good marathon success is touching on all paces throughout a training cycle, so hitting some marathon pace work, half marathon pace work, 5K/10K work and even mile/2 mile work can be very beneficial. Sometimes a change in training methods can lead to big results. If you're looking for some training plans or ideas, I have some training plans for sale on Final Surge that have a great mix of all paces of work and layout the reasoning behind every workout and how to successfully accomplish the workout.

I think you're at the point where you need to look at increasing your mileage. Anything you can do to improve strength will be helpful too.

Agreed. This is pretty impressive to look at OP. 2:44 off of 90k/week is an anomaly. It's also rare to run lower mileage & have more endurance than speed. Would expect faster short distance PBs. I think it'll be tough to run faster without spending some time outside of a marathon build. I'm not really sure how to interpret all of the running @ GMP. Are you doing every run at marathon pace? You should be aiming for ~20% of your weekly running volume to be quality. Running @ GMP is quality. That long run looks very aggressive. In a 16 week marathon block, there isn't going to be the time to do too much speed work. But even more 10k-threshold work could help get you to sub-2:40. It's doable this block. I would put that stuff earlier in the build & find a half marathon halfway through the build. A runner like you should be able to hop under 2:40 off of a 1:16-17.

But my advice would be to not immediately sign up for another marathon after this race. Who knows what your ceiling in the marathon is. Take a year & train & race 5k-half marathon, while continuing to increase your mileage. Then go back to the marathon with increased potential. You're doing something right in training if you can run that fast over 26.2 miles with your speed.

OP, pretty textbook answer but have a look at the Norwegian on lower mileage thread. A lot of those guy adapt to marathon and a few report lately just natural training like that they have PB at the shorter distances on way. I think great approach and worth read for anyone thinking what to do next or at crossroad.

Bump up the volume -getting the average over 100km and a few peak weeks around 120km. If you have the time some extra aerobic volume from cross-training is a great idea too. With the additional volume try to have it somewhat evenly distributed throughout the week. I'm not familiar with the Mission Marathon Plans but if it's like most recreational runner plans the long runs are already plenty long enough and shouldn't be made longer.

Work on speed early in the block, but not 5k/10k "speed", real speed. Hill sprints, strides plyometrics. The goal here is to build more powerful, springy legs that will be more efficient and make it relatively easier to run marathon pace. This type of training is effective at a very low dose, and while it requires high effort and focus it shouldn't be "hard" in the way that something like 5k specific work is. All this stuff can pretty much be added to an existing program so no need to overhaul your whole training.

There's a lot of other stuff that can be done too, but given how close you are already these two things are the simplest and lowest-hanging fruit I can think of that have a high likelihood of getting past that 2:40 barrier.

I run a little less mileage than you and can hit sub 2:40

I run a lot more grey zone than other people (for me ~6:40 pace, and I’m a little faster than 16 in a 5k)

Sometimes it’ll go like, a grey zone day where I feel like I’m dialing it back, followed by one where I’m tired but just push through. I seek out hills.

if I don’t have a race, I might run like this every day, but when a race approaches I start doing long tempos once or twice a week (4-8 miles at ~5:40) and trying to go easy once or twice a week. I never wear supershoes except for maybe one workout before the race.

I did one 18 miler before my last marathon bc I was not able to do more due to a serious injury

But I think from my normal fitness based only on 6-10 mile grey zone runs I already have a lot of the strength that you would get from a long run bc I start a lot of them tired. 18 or 20 miler just seems like a way to experiment with fueling.

Supershoes are such a hack that if you can get your aerobic and strength good enough (through grey zones, tempos, hills and something like 13 mi progression which is really easy wo when you’re feeling good) in sneakers you should be able to get a 2:40 in carbon

Thanks for the feedback already!! Really appreciated!

I do run at different paces, it should be close to the 80-20 rule. So I believe this is ok.
The interval sessions in the 16wk training plan transitions from short "fast" intervals (1-3 min at 5-10k pace) to longer blocks at threshold pace (up to 20 min). In the second half of the plan, there are more blocks at goal marathon pace, e.g. tempo runs (15k at MP) and blocks of 20 min at MP during the long run.

There's no real speed in the plan, except for a couple of strides at the end of some easy runs.

I see I can add the link now:

runnersworld.com

Mission Marathon Training Plan: sub-3 hours

You training plan for a speedy marathon, sorted

Link:www.runnersworld.com/uk/training/marat...

If I understand correct, and given my next marathon in Sept is already booked, it could be good to:

- in the first 2 months: build mileage and add speed and hill work - i.e. making legs stronger for the next marathon training cycle
- then start the 16 week plan, but add some more mileage over the week (e.g. longer easy runs, longer warm up, ...?) up to ca. 120 km peak.

Thanks again!!

2:44 marathon off of just super aerobic marathon stuff is quite impressive I think.

Makes me think that you would also be relatively underdeveloped with the threshold and v02 max areas. Once you start targeting these zones then hopefully your 5k will come down. If you can bring your 5k time down by a minute or so then I think you would comfortably be able to run sub 2:38-2:40 as everything would just feel easier, and this might be easier to achieve.

Well, sounds reasonable..
However, running the blocks at goal marathon pace doesn't feel super aerobic though :) it feels more like threshold...
But it's true I barely go to the really high heart rates, so maybe that's a working point.

Waw, this "training science" is complex :) I also have read to stay out of the high heart rate zone if you're training for a marathon, because it's bad for your endurance...?