JMystrerio, I am not wrong. The summer season began just after school ended and ended 2 weeks before school began. At that time, the team could no longer meet officially. Did you run for York? Again, my kids did, so I was there, and can attest to the fact that they ran 1000 miles before school ever began. 120 miles per week was their max. One of them, now 43, still runs close to 3000 miles a year.
I was encouraged to run 1000-mile off-seasons by #01 a mentor in my home state (75 state champ, 80-84 OT participant) and #02 knowledge of York guys doing the same.
Early November to March, easier to hit the target. The summer, however, forces you to hit big numbers right away. I remember being skinny as a rail, the sweat flying up through my shoes and trying to bring the last mile in at sub-5. But really, to hit that summer target youve got to be running long and sometimes twice or three times per day. Good fundamentals.
I saw York coach Newton speak in person, and he was asked what his biggest regret was. He said that he asked Sage to take it easy in the 3200 at State to make sure he would have enough to win the other races necessary to get York’s first track championship. He said Sage was able to run much faster than that 8:42, and he regretted asking him to back off. I think ~8:41 was the national record at the time.
JMystrerio, I am not wrong. The summer season began just after school ended and ended 2 weeks before school began. At that time, the team could no longer meet officially. Did you run for York? Again, my kids did, so I was there, and can attest to the fact that they ran 1000 miles before school ever began. 120 miles per week was their max. One of them, now 43, still runs close to 3000 miles a year.
Give it up, please.
I ran for York and people who used to be on the old Dyestat forums know who I am. Maybe things are defined differently now but I ran 1000 miles before my junior and senior years and the time frame then was June 1 to August 31. The state meet always ended near Memorial Day weekend and that's when the official track season ended and the summer program started in June. In fact those of us who weren't running in state turned in our kits before then.
Mr Newton, even though the xc season started August 15 would make a daily point to tell those who were going for 1000 how many miles we ran in those workouts up to Aug 31. It didn't matter if the school year hadn't started because it was still considered summer training and we mostly ran long segments and continuals at East End Park. Those were the only two weeks that were counted towards 1000 even though they were official practices.
Ironically you may remember the coaching staff did get into a little trouble one season because of technically unauthorized summer practices and they were suspended. Perhaps that altered the time frame. I can attest I never ran more than 80 miles a week except during what was known as Camp Olympia Week in early August where we put in over 100. I also didn't run every day, if I went 15 one day I went only 5 the next day or took it off completely.
On another note I found this link to a site that shows several of the xc records for York. The most interesting are the 2 mile time trial (which is now known as the Hoka postal meet) and the all-time lists at the bottom of the page.
If you go through the 2 mile times you'll see most of the yearly top 5 York runners ran between 9:30 and 10:00. Quite a few over 10:00 too. This shows that most York runners were not studs and there was no evidence to show that they should've been expected to become top flight D1 runners, All-Americans, Olympians...or whatever that silly myth was. What it does show is how amazing the amount of state titles and national recognition the program had with guys who were simply good kids who wanted to win as a team. Mr Newton did that.
Another amazing thing is Don Sage isn't the all-time leader in any of his cross country years, probably likely weather related as we always ran this in mid-October when it could be either perfect weather or crappy weather as well as if they were training through that week.
I saw York coach Newton speak in person, and he was asked what his biggest regret was. He said that he asked Sage to take it easy in the 3200 at State to make sure he would have enough to win the other races necessary to get York’s first track championship. He said Sage was able to run much faster than that 8:42, and he regretted asking him to back off. I think ~8:41 was the national record at the time.
Virgin set the two mile record at 8:41, Sage set a somewhat obscure NFHS 3200 record at 8:42. However, Gerry Lindgren ran 8:40i for the two mile and Dave Merrick ran 8:43i but both times were in open competition and not high school only.
Micah was just as talented as the Torres brothers. He was the next in line. I know the talent when I see it. I ran against him periodcally in high school and also in the Big Ten. I think even in high school he was battling back from injuries. A qualifier through Footlocker MW senior year was essentially his for the taking. Something went wrong that day. But if he had gotten through he would have been top 5.
Why bring him in the convo? Because three IHSA state champs, similar talent and three different ending results.
Come on Elmhurst #01. Maybe as had the talent of Eduardo but Jorge made 4 FLCC finals. Was a FLCC champion in 1998. Won NCAA cross country title in 02 (and was also third and second). Also an Olympian. This was a thread about Don Sage yet we are talking/comparing him to a guy who never made footlocker, was an NCAA All American or broke 9:00. If we are throwing out Illinois high schoolers why not mention Lukas Verzbicas or Chris Derrick? Nothing against Micah but come on.
I think Micah was a Big 10 XC Champ as well. He was definitley as talented as it gets, but was always injured from what I remember. I wouldn't put him up there with Sage though. I raced some of these guys and Micah was the only one I'd consider beatable (to me).
Sage was on that one Stanford XC team with Hall, Luchini, Robison? And Tenforde. They scored something like 28 pts. Top 4 finished and could see their 5th runner coming down the straightaway. It was a nasty team.
Greenman, I used to post as greenliner. You likely know who my kids are, and they are on the record list you provided. These are xc records, right, not track?
My son wrote in his blog: "At York, if I heard 45-30-15 announced as the workout, I would feel a wave of relief. That was our easy day. There were several summer days where I ran over 20 miles. One week I ran over 120 miles."
And..."We ran 25*400 with one minute rest every Monday all summer. We did 12*800, 30*200, the ‘hour continual run’ (see how far you can run in an hour). Our labor day weekend consisted of a Friday workout of 1*1600, 10*400, 10*200 followed by the annual intrasquad meet on Saturday and then the fabled 2-man 10-mile relay on Monday (you and your partner trade off running 400s until you’ve each done twenty – proud to say my brother and I defeated the sophomore team of Don Sage and Pete Cioni when we were seniors!)"
Greenman, I used to post as greenliner. You likely know who my kids are, and they are on the record list you provided. These are xc records, right, not track?
My son wrote in his blog: "At York, if I heard 45-30-15 announced as the workout, I would feel a wave of relief. That was our easy day. There were several summer days where I ran over 20 miles. One week I ran over 120 miles."
And..."We ran 25*400 with one minute rest every Monday all summer. We did 12*800, 30*200, the ‘hour continual run’ (see how far you can run in an hour). Our labor day weekend consisted of a Friday workout of 1*1600, 10*400, 10*200 followed by the annual intrasquad meet on Saturday and then the fabled 2-man 10-mile relay on Monday (you and your partner trade off running 400s until you’ve each done twenty – proud to say my brother and I defeated the sophomore team of Don Sage and Pete Cioni when we were seniors!)"
I remember the summer running issue.
Those are the 2 mile times run during the xc season for the national postal meets. The track records are of course overall faster and deeper as it's later in the school year and there are more opportunities to run the distance. But they are also a mid October gauge to see fitness level before the conference, regional, state meets.
The thing with the summer program was 1000 miles considered an optimum number to build a base for the fall. There was an occasional track workout but it was optional as was everything else, although Mr Newton would growl sometimes at a top guy if he didn't see him for a few weeks with something like "Where the hell have you been?"
Some guys ran well over 1000, some didn't; some ran the occasional track workout, some didn't. But those were not every week and they were the only planned workouts that Mr Newton actually conducted. He gave us a guideline of workouts to run on our own, but it was up to us to do them and in the end of you followed the guideline you would hit 1000.
I personally only did a 20 x 400 once each summer just to break up the slower, longer mileage. I also would run a few summer xc meets where I could gauge myself against guys from other schools who would show up and as a confidence builder. Overall I'd say most of us 1000 mile clubbers ran just over 1000, a few guys would run more but that didn't necessarily mean they improved more than those who ran less.
I think I remember your sons, they were good and I believe had good college results too, but I myself could never do 120 mile weeks or 20 mile days. I never liked to do more than 7 or 8 mile runs. I would do those in the morning, then work, then an easy 3 or 4 mile run in the evening, unless I was going to run a summer meet or decided to do a track workout. Most evenings where I knew guys would be meeting up at the school I'd run out to the school hang out with the guys and kind of "check in" with the coach.
My progression in high school?
Freshman 11:08 (no summer mileage)
Soph 10:37 (550 miles)
Junior 10:09 (1070 miles) One Camp Olympia week in August where we hit 100
Senior 9:46 (1130 miles) Another Camp Olympia week for 100
I saw York coach Newton speak in person, and he was asked what his biggest regret was. He said that he asked Sage to take it easy in the 3200 at State to make sure he would have enough to win the other races necessary to get York’s first track championship. He said Sage was able to run much faster than that 8:42, and he regretted asking him to back off. I think ~8:41 was the national record at the time.
Virgin set the two mile record at 8:41, Sage set a somewhat obscure NFHS 3200 record at 8:42. However, Gerry Lindgren ran 8:40i for the two mile and Dave Merrick ran 8:43i but both times were in open competition and not high school only.
Jeff Nelson ran 8:36 for 2 miles. Hard to take a 3200m record slower than that too seriously. It would be like getting a national record for running a 3:57 1600 cause nobody has a split for webs or Ryuns runs…
more replying to “4:20 is not fast”, Keller was such a good guy and has such a level head that even in HS he knew good and well where he stood relative to DS’s talent level, and would take zero offense to this sort of thing. I could text him and ask him but I know the answer and anyone to knew Tim knows this as well.
Don was just about as nice a guy as Timmy, soft spoken, humble, never bragged about himself, would always ask how things were and genuinely showed interest in other people. Def an all around good guy.
IIRC, Don rabbited my PB at Stanford, I always remember Vin saying, in a rather stern tone, as the gun went off, “DON, GET OUT!!!” and Don freaking bolted, ended up putting me in last place for almost 1K before I finally started making contact, haha.
I'll do that. It'll be interesting to see how he responds. FYI, he has 2 kids, one 10 and one 8.
I'll add to the kudos for Tim Keller. Tim was a genuinely nice guy, and he and Don had huge respect for each other. And I believe he went sub-9 more times than Don did- and if I remember, and please correct if I am wrong, he went to U Wis?
Virgin set the two mile record at 8:41, Sage set a somewhat obscure NFHS 3200 record at 8:42. However, Gerry Lindgren ran 8:40i for the two mile and Dave Merrick ran 8:43i but both times were in open competition and not high school only.
Jeff Nelson ran 8:36 for 2 miles. Hard to take a 3200m record slower than that too seriously. It would be like getting a national record for running a 3:57 1600 cause nobody has a split for webs or Ryuns runs…
Really good call
it was like the Mrr a NE guy , Franklin Sanchez reference
more replying to “4:20 is not fast”, Keller was such a good guy and has such a level head that even in HS he knew good and well where he stood relative to DS’s talent level, and would take zero offense to this sort of thing. I could text him and ask him but I know the answer and anyone to knew Tim knows this as well.
Don was just about as nice a guy as Timmy, soft spoken, humble, never bragged about himself, would always ask how things were and genuinely showed interest in other people. Def an all around good guy.
IIRC, Don rabbited my PB at Stanford, I always remember Vin saying, in a rather stern tone, as the gun went off, “DON, GET OUT!!!” and Don freaking bolted, ended up putting me in last place for almost 1K before I finally started making contact, haha.
Yeah, I don’t doubt they were friends, but Sage wasted an opportunity to run close to 8:30 that day.
