The Daniels 10% guideline is per workout, not per week. So someone running 50 mpw would do max 5 miles at T for a single workout. Not unreasonable to do that more than once a week. In fact, I've done it.
If you are having difficulty recovering from a Daniels-style T workout, then you are running it too hard. He describes it as comfortably hard and ballparks it around 25-30s slower than 5k pace.
During my best days, I don't think I could've doubled with 5 at T pace in am and 5 at T pace pm on 50 mpw, but 5 T monday and 5 T wednesday would not be difficult.
Daniels 10% guideline is not per workout, but overal weekly threshold volume, 2nd edition, page 46. I don't have a third edition, maybe he changed there?
I went back and checked. I only have first edition handy. It says per workout. My second edition is in a box somewhere. His marathon schedules use multiple T workouts per week. I found this picture online. Not my photo:
Doesn't really matter. My point still stands. I think it's perfectly fine to run multiple T workouts per week, even at low mileages (and certainly well below your idea of 70-80 mpw). If you run them at the proper pace, it's certainly possible to double. But if you overcook the pace, you'll be too tired.
And if you can't bounce back from a Daniels T workout in less than 48 hours, then you are definitely running too fast.
Canefis, how does the saturday hill workout feel for you? Do you ever get sore after it like you would after let's say 8x10s all out hill sprints?
I never feel sore after saturday, usually after sunday (long run) I feel trashed on monday... I think it is because uphill gives minimal impact force to your joints and muscles. Also down hill course f@ck me always as hard as hell (this course I try to avoid in training as much as posdible). In the beginning I was worry about saturday workout, but now after 10weeks of doubles I can say, that is quite safe workout for me. For example, I will be more trashed after 12x400 @5K on track(or flat course) compare to the 10x30s uphill @1500K.
The amateur Ingebrigtsen, doesn't even do double thresholds. He typically does 3 single threshold sessions per week. Typical sessions are 3x3000m, 5x2000m, 10x1000m. Always 1 minute recovery, no matter the length of the rep. There are exceptions, but that is what he typically does.
And his progress stagnated...Ok, he just jumped from nowhere to 01:15:×× @HM, goos, but what next... ? 1 year no improvement +-
Fantastic and informative post. As someone who's traditionally neglected threshold training in favor of a polarized approach of pure easy miles and VO2max intensity (and is looking to improve on this front after some stagnation), I'm hoping to apply some of your outlined details to myself soon. Out of curiosity, what are your other PRs aside from your marathon? I'm wondering if it's affected your racing ability at 5k and below, for example.
I did the double threshold workouts for quite a while with no success at all. I would do 3x10 minutes on 1 minute recovery on my 8M run to work in the morning on one day, 7x3 minutes on 1 minute recovery on my return, on another day do 5x6 minutes (1 min) in the morning and 7x3 minutes or 10x2 minutes in the evening. On the weekend, I'd do one 3x10 or 7x3 or the like, for 5 threshold runs per week, while typically averaging 16-18 miles per day. My speed on these was totally inadequate. I needed measured distances to run speeds that would allow me to improve.
The point is that my times were garbage on the 5 threshold style workout, and I needed the track work to get back to where I had been, and I had been doing the 5 thresholds per week for 8 months.
The amateur Ingebrigtsen, doesn't even do double thresholds. He typically does 3 single threshold sessions per week. Typical sessions are 3x3000m, 5x2000m, 10x1000m. Always 1 minute recovery, no matter the length of the rep. There are exceptions, but that is what he typically does.
And his progress stagnated...Ok, he just jumped from nowhere to 01:15:×× @HM, goos, but what next... ? 1 year no improvement +-
Quick question: You said one should be at around 80 miles to start double threhsold, but here say you can do double threshold at any amount. Do you mean any amount 80+ or really any amount? I am going to hs next year and am thinking about doing double threhsold for my summer training. I do have a lactate meter if your wondering.
Quick question: You said one should be at around 80 miles to start double threhsold, but here say you can do double threshold at any amount. Do you mean any amount 80+ or really any amount? I am going to hs next year and am thinking about doing double threhsold for my summer training. I do have a lactate meter if your wondering.
you can do whatever, it's better if you have someone with experience to help you. I did a double threshold of 6km each on a 40 miles week so everything is possible. (would not advise tho)
I didn't have problems even tho I felt trash from the warm up in the morning session. I got a minor injury just a couple weeks before from doing 1h10m hilly "long run" at 72% hr max average.
Willie Moore does a deep dive on his 2022-2023 season. He examines double threshold, speed/power training, racing results, heart rate, respiration, and altitude.
Double threshold is just single threshold with shorter recovery.
people have been doing double threshold for decades, but now there is a new name for it.
As with any training methods, you have to apply it to a certain goal. If you want to run 13:00, you’re going to plan your double thresholds differently than someone trying to run 19:00. It’s not about running slower for each rep
Well of course it doesn't work if you don't actually measure lactate. This guy just wasted a year of running, and he is wasting the time of the people he is coaching.
9 day cycle with following schedule: triple days, 3 days easy, 3 days of workouts in a row, 3 days easy. Triple Day: 4-5 miles of LT volume in the morning. Midday: 12 x 100, 8 x 150, etc at 3k/mile/800 type pace, and LT/CV in the evening such as 6-7 x 800. The 3 workout days in a row were going to be LT, Controlled speed, LT.
This is just a fool overtraining, doesn't really give any insight into how to implement double T other than a clear warning that these pro-level training methods need to be implemented carefully.
Nobody should be training that hard to run such average times in the era of super shoes and abundance of training knowledge.
Double threshold is just single threshold with shorter recovery.
people have been doing double threshold for decades, but now there is a new name for it.
As with any training methods, you have to apply it to a certain goal. If you want to run 13:00, you’re going to plan your double thresholds differently than someone trying to run 19:00. It’s not about running slower for each rep
^ "Double threshold is just single threshold with shorter recovery."
