XY athlete Francine Nyonsaba outkicks XX double Olympic champ Faith Kipyegon in Doha

Before the IOC decided to abandon all chromosomal and genetic testing of athletes seeking eligibility for women's events, the tests used in the 1990s looked for the SRY gene as well as fragments of it.

But as has already been pointed out, XX SRY-positive males have never been a cause for concern in women's sports. Since XX SRY-positive males develop entirely normally for males, there is no historical pattern of them competing, or attempting to compete, in women's sports the way there has been over time with XY males who have a handful of particular disorders of male sex development such as 5-ARD and AIS.

Watching the race, I was pulling for Kipyegon, such a great athlete. I get a huge kick out of her victory celebrations, so heartfelt and natural. Faith worked it hard for good position on the last couple laps, and my heart sank to see her challenge with half a lap to go. Lane two in this situation played out as the viewer might expect. You can't win against Niyosaba running extra meters!
Could Kipyegon have won the race if she waited for the final 100? Maybe not, but it would have given her a better shot.

I like Niyonsaba too, she's tough, smart and cool. I can't say what the best solution would be for an athlete with the XY condition. There's no simple answer.
As for trans athletes, it isn't fair for (former) men to compete against women. Former women taking testosterone -- it's hard to know what is fair? They can't fairly complete against women, and I don't know that they'd be competitive at the top levels as men. Perhaps the non-binary catagory makes sense? I don't know. It's just not easy to figure out.

I am on the transgender/non-binary spectrum, it's always in there, but I'm comfortable presenting as male or female. I'm not changing my body. I compete as a man. I'm only one person, with one opinion. There is no "standard" on who is non-binary or trans, and how they should define themselves. I honor everyone's own definition of their gender, men, women, trans, non-binary and so on.

This is not true.

Yes it. And what Wejo and I were talking about are people like Fanny Blankers Koen (And I know I messed up the spelling) who dominated their sport then (in her case) were found to be "men" on the inside after she died.

It could be that you aren't old enough to have seen what we're talking about on TV.

40-100 years ago we would just think that "woman" was more "masculine" than the others.

I didn't read the rest of your post because you started off wrong.

The interesting parts about Schinegger, who wasn't allowed to compete in 1968, are that someone like that could now legally run in the women's 100 m, 200 m, 3000 m, 5000 m and so on. If it's true that Schinegger has XY 5-ARD, then he could even compete in all running events, as only XY 46 athletes are excluded.

100 years ago, yes, 50 years ago, no.

And Fanny? You sure?

en.wikipedia.org

Fanny Blankers-Koen

Francina "Fanny" Elsje Blankers-Koen (26 April 1918 – 25 January 2004) was a Dutch track and field athlete, best known for winning four gold medals at the 1948 Summer Olympics in London. She competed there as a 30-year-old mo...

Link:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_Blankers-K...

It could not be simpler:

If you have a Y chromosome, you can't compete in the "woman's" event.

No need to bother with Testosterone levels, anatomy, etc.

Pray tell, which of my many points are you saying isn't true?

I suspect I am one of the oldest posters here. I wasn't alive 100 years ago, but I was definitely around 40 years ago - and I saw quite a lot.

I have personally known, and competed in sports against, a person with an XY DSD for 50 years. I've been interested in the topic of DSDs generally and XY DSDs in women's sports - and I've followed news of these topics in real time - since the 1968 winter Olympics in Grenoble. I suspect I am one of most knowledgable people about XY DSDs and their history in women's sports on LRC - and IRL.

The fact that Erika Schinegger didn't show up to compete at the 1968 winter Games and authorities were all hush-hush about about what happened to the Austrian ace was a very big deal amongst young ski racers and ski fans at the time. Schinegger had been the hands-down favorite to win the gold in all the women's Olympic alpine events at Grenoble - just like Jean-Claude Killy did in all the men's alpine events that year. In the lead-up to the Grenoble Games, ski racing fans worldwide were psyched to see Schinegger and Killy both sweep in their respective categories. So when Schinegger just vanished from the scene and officials weren't talking about it, there was a lot of shock, head-scratching, questioning and speculation.

Maybe 40-100 years ago, some men like you "would just think that 'woman' was more 'masculine' than the others" - but lots of women wouldn't. A great many of the world's women believe there's a vast world of difference between masculine, butch and stone butch women and males with the kinds of disorders of male sex development that Semenya and Niyonsaba have. We also know that whilst athletes like Semenya and Niyonsaba are often described in the press as "women with hyperandrogenism," they are actually nothing like females with that condition.

It's telling - and weird, sexist and frankly insulting - that you are claiming Fanny Blankers-Koen, known in her days competing as "the flying housewife," was a male with a DSD whom you claim was found to be a man after her death. FFS, Blankers-Koen was famous for winning three gold medals while pregnant with her third child!

"the [1948] London Games managed to set an Olympic attendance record, and an unlikely Olympic star emerged. Fanny Blankers-Koen of Holland, 6 feet tall and 30 years old, was a “shy, towering, drably domesticated” straw-blonde mother of a 7-year-old son and a 2-year-old daughter who talked of how she liked cooking and housekeeping. She also won four gold medals in track and field and became “as well known to Olympic patrons as King George of England.” Nicknamed the “Flying Housewife,” Blankers-Koen achieved this feat while pregnantwith her third child."

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-flying-housewife-of-the-1948-london-games-10049278/

I think you are confusing Blankers-Koen with Foekje Dillema. Or perhaps with Mark Weston (born Mary Louise Edith Weston) and/or Stella Walsh.

Or maybe you're one of those guys - whose numbers are legion nowadays - who would describe any woman who doesn't look like a porn star, Kardashian, Jessica Rabbit or Bette Boop as "masculine."

You mean Stella Walsh?

Run Ragged wrote "
Maybe 40-100 years ago, some men like you "would just think that 'woman' was more 'masculine' than the others" - but lots of women wouldn't. A great many of the world's women believe there's a vast world of difference between masculine, butch and stone butch women and males with the kinds of disorders of male sex development that Semenya and Niyonsaba have. We also know that whilst athletes like Semenya and Niyonsaba are often described in the press as "women with hyperandrogenism," they are actually nothing like females with that condition."
This is true. I'm a woman, and I find it very easy to see that these individuals are male. I had no doubts about any of them and there are a few other people popular in mainstream media whom I suspect are born male too but portray themselves as female.
Apart from the body, its evident from the brow shape, brow height, jaw, nasal root, and Adam's Apple. Then in the body, just a glance at the bone shape of the shoulders (not the muscular development) can tell you whether somebody is male or female. The voice is also a giveaway. Niyonsaba used to look like a typical teenage/early twenties boy to me. He know looks like a typical male-mid twenties male. No way could I mistake them, Wambui, Semenya or Mboma for being female even if I saw them for the first time.

Who are the brain wizards accusing FBK of being a man?

Thank you RunRagged for your elaborate and knowledgeable posts in this topic.

It is clear that these XY (wo)men with DSD have an unfair advantage.

Sorry if my lingo has caused confusion. The XY in "XY 5-ARD" refers to the sex chromosomes of persons with this DSD, which in the case of Schinegger are presumably 46,XY because all males with this and other similar DSDs are 46,XY. (The 46 there refers to the total numbers of chromosomes, which in humans usually come in 23 pairs - but some people have disorders in which they are missing a chromosome (45, X0) or they have extras (47,XXY; 47,XYY; 48,XXYY; 49,XXXXY).

The 5-ARD part is shorthand for the enzyme deficiency that impairs the ability to convert T into its more potent form, DHT. It stands for 5-alpha reductase deficiency.

Females can have 5-ARD, but because DHT (and T) do not play a major role in female sex development the way those hormones do in males, in females 5-ARD is not a DSD. Most women and girls with 5-ARD will go their whole lives unaware they have the condition, because in females it's not known to have any appreciable effects.

I use the term "XY 5-ARD" in convos about athletes with disorders of male sex development participating in women's sport like Semenya, Niyonaba and Schinegger to make it clear that this a DSD that only occurs in males - males whose sex chromosomes are 46,XY.

Female athletes who are XX or X0 and SRY-negative yet have 5-ARD don't have any unfair advantages - which is why there have never been any attempts to exclude, or restrict, females with 5-ARD in women's sports.

Since 5-ARD "runs in families," it's very likely that one of Semenya's sisters also inherited 5-ARD. If that were the case and she she sought eligibility for elite track & field events, she wouldn't be affected by WA's current rules regarding 5-ARD. Coz those rules only apply to males with 5-ARD like Caster.

Which raises the question: why is it that only Caster Semenya ended up as a running star, and not a single one of Semenya's four sisters?

IAAF initially had DSD regulations on ALL events. Dutee Chand challenged this, and CAS decided against IAAF. IAAF was told by CAS to provide concrete evidence that DSD athletes had unfair advantage, and IAAF could not prove that across all events. (Actually, they didn't have evidence for 1500/mile. They had evidence for HT and PV, but those two events didn't have any promiment DSD athlete.)

So what will happen next is that WA (IAAF) accumulates enough evidence to prove that the restriction needs to be extended to 3000/5000. Once they have enough data, they can add 3000/5000 to the restricted events. The same goes for Mbama and 200. Nyonsaba is well aware of that, and is willing to move to yet another event if 3000/5000 is restricted.

The only way this could change more quickly is for CAS to realize it is senseless to add one event at a time based on actual race results. But until that happens, we will just have to wait for someone to dominate an event for a few years before that event is added to the restricted category. That's why CAS is party to be blamed, and not IAAF (WA). WA is doing the best they can under the circumstances.

Understood, than you!

Thank you, not than you.

Also thanks to Just Another Hobby Jogger. I am not sure that I fully agree that WA didn't have enough evidence in 2018 for the 200 m for example, but I can appreciate that they decided to play it safe and focus on the distances around 800 m.

Should the do the same for the men 100m?

Prove that a group has an unfair advantage over other group(s) and restrict based on that?

I think not.

No one has "unfair advantage" in men's 100m.

That's the wrong appeal. CAS are to blame for overturning the original regulation that covered all events. The regulation covering only 400-Mile came later and is a direct result of CAS's ruling.