Athing Mu just DROPPED OUT of the women's mile and showed her true greatness. I love her even more!!!!

Jo72 wrote:

pb pb wrote:

Think of it this way — all the women that beat her today probably wouldn’t have been able to keep up with her pace through 1209m at the same age.

KoKo ran 4:04 1500m at a few months older (just turned 20 in Feb 2017) and got European indoors silver behind Muir. I am not looking up the others. But yes, they weren't Olympic 800m champions at 19. We knew this before.

With a block of training, she finishes top 3. With that said, I’d prefer to see her split 47.9r than run a 3:59 1500m.

Pure speculation. If anything Mu's DNF has strongly confirmed the "400/800 types cannot run 1500/mile" cliché.

Brazier can.

It's not such a big deal but I am also not willing to give someone an easy pass who is Olympic champion and runs at the most prestigious indoor mile race in the US. It's not some backwater college meet. Either she or coach/team should better know what they are doing.

It's still a bit of a mystery for me why she didn't run 400m, if not 800m.

And why she was, despite the "test race" two weeks ago badly prepared for the actual race. They must have done some "test workouts" to get both a feeling for a reasonable pace and whether Mu would be closer to 4:32 or 4:26.

This is not exact science but close enough. E.g. I am not surprised that Purrier was 3 sec. slower despite her coach claiming she was as good as 2 years ago because she had to frontrun instead of chasing other runners. Koko and Hull also ran pretty close to equivalents of their 3000m performance 2 weeks ago which gave at least a ballpark estimate because it was also unlikely that they would be really sharp at the speed end to dip under 4:20. And these are guesstimates from the outside without any training data.

Crop Duster-84 wrote:

Jo72 wrote:

Pure speculation. If anything Mu's DNF has strongly confirmed the "400/800 types cannot run 1500/mile" cliché.

Brazier can.

But he cannot run a 400m even to close the male equivalent of Mu's sub 50 which would be sub 45. So Brazier is in no way so clear a 400/800 type as Mu is. But keep moving goalposts...

Jo72 wrote:

Crop Duster-84 wrote:

Brazier can.

But he cannot run a 400m even to close the male equivalent of Mu's sub 50 which would be sub 45. So Brazier is in no way so clear a 400/800 type as Mu is. But keep moving goalposts...

No, you're moving goalposts. You'd stated: "400/800 types cannot run 1500/mile" ". This was refuted. Brazier can compete well in either. In fact, he just did.

The point is running world class times. Of course they can run something at the distance.

Almost nobody can run the *qualifying standards* for worlds/olympics in both 400 and 1500 which is what I consider world class in a wide sense. Brazier is close for the weaker indoor standards, but he has no chance at all at sub 45, probably not 45.5. And Mu failed running 4:28 otherwise she would have met this weakest possible world class standard.

And nobody (except for one biological male competing with females) in t&f history since the professionalization in the 60s/70s (and I am not digging but very few, if any did it between the 1920s and 60s) has ever run marks that would likely get them into a *worlds/olympics finale* (world class in a narrower sense). That some (still not many) people can run 46.5 and 3:37 I'll easily grant.

Classic Rojo clickbait but clearly it's worked so I'll bite. I don't think this is your worst post. I will claw my way to a bad finish instead of a DNF but I'm not an elite athlete &, honestly, sometimes a DNF would have been better.

I am impressed that she didn't just sit back. Going through 1200 in 3:15 is impressive. She probably has an incredible 1k in her. Would rather see her challenge herself than just run 4:30ish. But she could have crawled home to run 4:25-4:30. Low-4:30s with something over 40.

I've never understood the people who say , "I'd never ever DNF." When I was coaching, a DNF never bothered me if it was warranted.

I remember Carlos Lopes talking about this. He dnf'd a couple marathons and finished about one before winning the Olympics. Why gallantly finish if it's not right that day?

Yes. She was slowing but I recall thinking that she would crawl home in 4:28 and then she disappeared on the backstretch. I predict that we will hear that she tweaked something.

rojo wrote:

I've never understood the people who say , "I'd never ever DNF." When I was coaching, a DNF never bothered me if it was warranted.

I loved what Athing Mu just did. She didn't try to half-ass that mile. She competed. She thought, " I'll do what I do in every race I do - try to win."

Eventually physiology caught up with her.

She covered 800 in 2:10.00, 1200 in 3:15 but then ran a 34.97

I love that than doing what so many US pros would have done which is run in the back and then kick big to PB.

Da FuQ ?

Crop Duster-84 wrote:

Jo72 wrote:

But he cannot run a 400m even to close the male equivalent of Mu's sub 50 which would be sub 45. So Brazier is in no way so clear a 400/800 type as Mu is. But keep moving goalposts...

No, you're moving goalposts. You'd stated: "400/800 types cannot run 1500/mile" ". This was refuted. Brazier can compete well in either. In fact, he just did.

You missed the point. Brazier is not a 400m runner. His best is 46.91 - slower than Coe. He is an 800m specialist. And what exactly has he achieved over the 1500 that is in any way comparable to his 800m feats?

but but wrote:

Yes. She was slowing but I recall thinking that she would crawl home in 4:28 and then she disappeared on the backstretch. I predict that we will hear that she tweaked something.

Her pride.

runn wrote:

I've never understood the people who say , "I'd never ever DNF." When I was coaching, a DNF never bothered me if it was warranted.

I remember Carlos Lopes talking about this. He dnf'd a couple marathons and finished about one before winning the Olympics. Why gallantly finish if it's not right that day?

How is it "warranted"? When you don't want to be thrashed - as she was going to be?

I'm shocked at Rojo's take on this. I think a few things can be true:

-Mu deserves credit for running fearlessly with the leaders. When they hit 1k and she still looked good, I was thinking to myself "could she actually win this?" It made the race more interesting. I also would have had no issue if she sat back in the pack and tried to see how many people she could catch on the way in but I liked seeing her go for it and try to win the race.

-Mu showed through 1400m that she has what it takes to be a more-than-capable miler. Even if she slowed way down, she would still have likely broken 4:30. That's outstanding for a 19-year-old and remarkable range for someone who runs 49-mid in the 400. Of course she didn't actually finish the race, which leads me to my next point...

-Barring an undisclosed injury, it is hard for me to view dropping out as anything other than a weak move. Unless she was genuinely injured (there is no indication this is the case, but she did not speak with media after the race so I can't say with 100% certainty), I'm not going to support an athlete at any level stepping off the track and giving up with 200m to go in a mile. Quitting just because you can't win isn't a great attitude.

-If Mu tweaked something or was genuinely injured, dropping out was 100% warranted and the correct move. No reason to risk further injury.

-Mu may be the Olympic champ, but she's still only 19 years old. She doesn't have a ton of experience racing as a professional, and she has ZERO experience running an event that is out of her comfort zone against some of the best in the world. She did not handle it well but she is hardly the only 19-year-old to react poorly to an adverse situation. She should not be endlessly criticized for this. Move on and learn from the experience.

-Hopefully this outcome will be a good thing in the long run. Mu didn't lose at all after NCAA indoors last year and since then had not just won every race she was in but dominated it. So to go from that to being in a race where you're struggling to hang on to sixth is a huge adjustment. Every athlete needs to learn how to lose eventually. Though I still don't think Mu will be doing a lot of losing this year.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Crop Duster-84 wrote:

No, you're moving goalposts. You'd stated: "400/800 types cannot run 1500/mile" ". This was refuted. Brazier can compete well in either. In fact, he just did.

You missed the point. Brazier is not a 400m runner. His best is 46.91 - slower than Coe. He is an 800m specialist. And what exactly has he achieved over the 1500 that is in any way comparable to his 800m feats?

Ummm, somebody was in the bathroom during the mens 400 yesterday…

Brazier acquitted himself just fine with a PR and going toe-to-toe with two 44 guys in the Tokyo 6th place finisher and the US Trials 5th place finisher. Probably would have beaten them both if not for the tactical error of going out to lane 4 rather than staying in lane 1 on the homestretch.

Very solid return to racing and good to see him healthy again.

Jonathan, I wouldn't differ with much of what you say, except I don't see that she has the credentials yet to be considered better than a 4.30 miler - outstanding for a world class 400m runner, but not for a true md runner. Bear in mind, we still have no mile time for her better than 4.38. Also, a good 3/4 time means little when you essentially have nothing left after that.

Her DNF is disappointing - but not as disappointing as the relentless apologism from those here seeking to shore up their inflated and erroneous predictions of what she can do when they have been proven embarrassingly wrong.

Crop Duster-84 wrote:

Jo72 wrote:

KoKo ran 4:04 1500m at a few months older (just turned 20 in Feb 2017) and got European indoors silver behind Muir. I am not looking up the others. But yes, they weren't Olympic 800m champions at 19. We knew this before.

Pure speculation. If anything Mu's DNF has strongly confirmed the "400/800 types cannot run 1500/mile" cliché.

Brazier can.

I doubt your reading comprehension. Poster asked if 400m/800m athletes can compete at an elite level at 1500m. A. Mu is a world class 400m athlete. A. Mu could have made it to Olympic 400m final. How is that similar to D. Brazier? D. Brazier cannot race at an elite level 400m or 1500m. D. Brazier is elite at 600m/800m. It is possible D. Brazier has an elite range to 1000m.

brazier is still a 46.x guy. he can't compete with real 400 runners when it counts. it is often the case that mid distance guys are competitive or even faster than sprinters over 400 meters in pre-season competition.

he really did look good yesterday. I don't want to under sell him. but it's not a level comparison to mu, who is world MEDAL class at 400 and 800.

high school xc coach wrote:

brazier is still a 46.x guy. he can't compete with real 400 runners when it counts. it is often the case that mid distance guys are competitive or even faster than sprinters over 400 meters in pre-season competition.

he really did look good yesterday. I don't want to under sell him. but it's not a level comparison to mu, who is world MEDAL class at 400 and 800.

I would agree with that. Brazier is not Mu over 400m. He's still a 46xx guy. (So was the '56 Olympic 800m champ, Tom Courtenay. And the great Jamaican half-miler from the '60's, George Kerr).

This whole debacle reminds me of the scene in the original Space Jam movie where Michael Jordan sucked as a baseball player but everyone was very nice about it.

"He looks great in that uniform. Can't teach that."

The opposing team's catcher giving him advice "Curve ball, don't swing. Fast ball outside corner, swing". MJ strikes. "That was your pitch! Don't worry, I'll give you another one".

"I want you to make sure that nobody bothers Michael, I want him to be the happiest player in the world".

*Crowd cheers Michael's strikeout".

"That was a strike out Mike, that was a good strike out. I mean you look good when you strike out, when I strike out, it looks nasty man, at least you look good man".