.,
Not specifically directed towards you, in fact I agree with the other points you raised above. I was more or less reiterating what Sam Weathers posted above - I actually agree with the spirit of what he said, unfortunately "chilling out" these days about such issues is easier said than done. I've never been a fan of Clinton or Bush but people who define their lives by hating one party or the other need to get over themselves.
KUFI,
I appreciate your explanation and insight. My main contention is that in order to define racial groups, "African American" does not cut it, because it does not encompass people of African descent who are not American.
I think that was the point of the original post, to point out how "African American" has become synonymous with "black" in order to be "politically correct" - but while "African American" is a cultural qualifier, "black" is a race and when you interchange them in a context when there are no Americans involved, the result is a rather pathetic attempt to be inoffensive by which you end up misclassifying people (I don't think the victims' families would like their children referred to as African Americans).
I agree. My response to the original post was that reports of PC have been and are exagerated. I also think that the words might have been used because the people rioting were not "black" but North African. Maybe the commentator was trying to say "north African" and slipped.
That's something I forgot to add, that the victims weren't black, which makes this all the more puzzling. My guess is that the reporter said "African American" as a reflex - perhaps without even knowing the origins of the children. Regardless of their skin color, they were part of a cultural minority that's faced discrimination in France. Most of the rioters are first or second-generation African immigrants, and there is actually a fair mix of North and Central Africans (white/arabic and black) from the footage I've seen. I really hope the situation is resolved soon, I don't feel anyone is benefitting from the riots, least of all the people who live in the impoverished neighborhoods (primarily hard-working Muslim immigrants).
excuse me, but... wrote:
I agree with what you've said here, and I don't oppose people being proud of their continental heritage, as cultural celebrations enrich our lives. Where I grew up, there was a strong Scandinavian community and a lot of emphasis was placed on this (especially around the holidays). But, I don't classify myself as a hyphenated-American even though I am aware of my roots.
Your ancestors were not forcibly brought over here to serve as unpaid labor, nor were the predecessors of those in your community with "strong Scandinavian" roots.
excuse me, but... wrote:
.,
Not specifically directed towards you, in fact I agree with the other points you raised above. I was more or less reiterating what Sam Weathers posted above - I actually agree with the spirit of what he said, unfortunately "chilling out" these days about such issues is easier said than done. I've never been a fan of Clinton or Bush but people who define their lives by hating one party or the other need to get over themselves.
Sorry, wasn't aware that I needed "chilling out." I didn't mean to come across as contentious. Apologies.
I haven't read many of the posts here.
But let me say, this has nothing to do with calling them what they want to be called. I have no problem with calling blacks in the US African Americans. But blacks in France I'm sure would have a problem with being called african-americans. The two terms are not interchangeable. It is not a matter of whether or not blacks here like the term. It is not acceptable to call french blacks, african american. end of story.
Sam Weathers wrote:
Captain Literal (guy with no name)
Take it out of your buttocks. I believe Jenks was using sarcasm and exaggeration.
Good god man. Stop being so freaking anal.
People like you are gross.
You hate yourself don't you?
I don't spellcheck as spellcheck is for wimps.
I wasn't intentionally being "freaking anal." I now realise he was being a little sarcastic but his post is exactly what I have heard said in reality, NOT sarcastic. So while I may have taken Tom Jenks a tad literally, there are people out there (my own father being one of them) who believe EXACTLY what Tom Jenks is saying. So it is sometimes difficult to judge whether people are being sarcastic or not. I misjudged him. I'm sorry.
That, combined with what seems to me to be absolutely outrageous comments on other threads(along the lines of Tom Jenks's post, if he were serious) that are absolutely serious, makes it hard to know when people should be taken seriously.
I failed to detect the sarcasm in Tom Jenks' post, yet I also fail to understand why my replies to his post evoked such a demeaning reaction from you. I am not offended by any means (although I predict you wouldn't care one way or the other), but I don't think anything I said would make me a gross person. Could you be a little more specific?
Cheers,
.
Tommy Boy wrote:
I haven't read many of the posts here.
But let me say, this has nothing to do with calling them what they want to be called. I have no problem with calling blacks in the US African Americans. But blacks in France I'm sure would have a problem with being called african-americans. The two terms are not interchangeable. It is not a matter of whether or not blacks here like the term. It is not acceptable to call french blacks, african american. end of story.
I absolutely agree. I think this particular thread has splintered off into two directions: one being the political correctness of calling blacks African Americans in America, and the other calling North Africans African Americans.
i havent read all of the responses so i don't know if this has been mentioned yet:
you can't look at a person and say they are for sure african american, there are many different places where they could reside currently, along with different places where they would call their land of origin. i was in a public health class and we got to speaking about diseases and different races/ethinic groups affected by certain ailments,and there was this black girl in it, and when the teacher mentioned about her being african american she corrected her and said where she was actually from,(it was a few years ago so i forgot). she wasnt offended by this term, but is it right to assume how somebody like to be classified ethnically based on how they look.
you can however tell by looking at the person if they are black. so if you have no knowledge of them personally then is it ok to call them black, i think so. is it a good chance that if they are in this country that they are african american, yes. so if i were giving this news report i think the best thing to say is what you know for sure and that these kids were in fact black.
oh why, is it ok to call white people white, but it is not ok to call black people black??
Luv2Run wrote:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0511/06/snn.01.htmlScroll down and read carefully and you will see:
LIN: Hard to say because it's been 11 days since two African- American teenagers were killed, electrocuted during a police chase, which prompted all of this.
END Quote
Now, I had not heard the two teens were Americans. Shouldn't they be called "African-French" or were they Africans or were they French?
and i take it you've never, in your entire life, misspoken. i'm sure if i took a transcript of everything you say i could come up with all sorts of things. instead of ascribing an intention to this that fits your agenda, perhaps you should consider the rather obvious conclusion that should be drawn from this. i doubt that someone who is intelligent enough to get on cnn thinks that an african who is in france is american.
you're excused . . . wrote:
[quote]excuse me, but... wrote:
Your ancestors were not forcibly brought over here to serve as unpaid labor, nor were the predecessors of those in your community with "strong Scandinavian" roots.
This lame argument is why nobody feels sorry for black people.
I am a white guy. My ancestors, like those of many other white guys, fled Europe in order to survive. My ancestors were Germans living in the Austro-Hungarian Empire. My great-grandparents died of starvation after the majority Serbians confiscated their land and sent my grandparents (and every other German their age) to Russia to pay off Serbia's war reparations. My grandparents were slaves in Russia for 4-5 years until they escaped and made their way back to Serbia to find out everything they owned was gone and everyone left behind had starved to death. They made their way to America and started over with nothing at all. After a lifetime of manual labor they were able to send their children to college.
For some reason, there is this misconception that every white person in America had ancestors who sailed across the Atlantic in a ship full of cash with 100 slaves and that we all settled in cotton plantations. I don't feel the first bit sorry when I hear the old sob story about slavery. My relatives were slaves more recently than any black was a slave in America, and my family turned out ok.
I support minority scolarships and programs to diversify the workforce. Racism has been a problem in America and we need to continue to integrate. What I don't like to hear is a whole lot of whining about how someone's ancestors had an unfair advantage. It didn't stop my family so why should it stop yours?
It's amusing how this argument breaks down. On one hand you have the PC types unable to admit how absurd it is to call a black/arab/whatever in france "African American." On the other hand, you have the angry white guys making statements like "this is why I don't feel sorry for blacks." I'm sure they'll get on ok without your pity...
There's a fine balance between censorship and sensitivity and I think that the original poster makes a good point. Unthinking adherence to a coded language can lead to absurdities such as he/she points out. In the US as long as a subset of blacks/african americans demand to be infantilized by only being called by certain names, they will relegate themselves to remain among the "opressed." I suspect that for many this is a comfortable place to be and no amount of progress will satisfy this group until they see themselves victorious over the white european culture that enslaved their ancestors. Their hypocrisy is evident in the fact that most blacks are extremely homophobic and far less progressive on issues like women's rights, etc. Until it becomes unacceptable for blacks to use ethnic slurs agaisnt asians, latinos, and hispanics and women, little real progress will be made in race relations in america.
Like I said, I think the thread has splintered in two directions. Nobody is advocating calling blacks in France African American. Some people are advocating calling blacks in America African American if that's what they'd like to be called.
x (formerly .) wrote:
Some people are advocating calling blacks in America African American if that's what they'd like to be called.
The problem with this thinking is that there is no "they" that will be pleased with one label. I know a few blacks from the islands who don't want to be called afroamerican or anything like it. They don't like being referred to as a "minority." Generally, they are proud of where they come from and if they get US citizenship, they do not want to be called "jamacain-american," they simply want to be called "american." I also know a number of people from africa who are completely comfortable with the dualism of being, say, Nigerian AND American. They refer to themselves as being black and see no problem with that. I think many people in this country have very little contact with blacks and tend to think of black people as being monolithic in thought and/or culture. Ultimately, this is a more racist attitude than is possibly engendered by the word that they are trying to ban: "black."
I think that it's a sad time in American culture, because we are obsessing over the symbolism and symbology of labels when real problems do not discussed - for example, what are we going to do about affirmative action? We can't have any real and meaningful dialogue about these issues (race and class in America) because people are so freaking timid about saying one of the "bad" words. In the meantime, while everyone argues about meaningless nonsense, another generation of urban kids gets consigned to poverty, lawlessness, and despair. I suspect that the ruling class in the US of which both Kerry and Bush are members are not all that displeased about this.
I, for one, am convinced that political correctness and all of its trappings are just another way to preserve status quo.
I AM AFRICAN AMERICAN....but I sure ain't black!
Spaceman came down to answer some things,
The world gathered round from paupers to kings,
I’ll answer your questions, I’ll answer them true,
I’ll show the way you know what to do,
Who is wrong and who is right?
Yellow, brown or black or white?
The spaceman he answered “You’ll no longer mind...
I’ve opened your eyes, you’re now colour blind”.
Racial - yeah.
no kidding...i have the same problem. north african but far from being black, i have almost blond hair and green eyes. i get annoyed when checking off boxes on forms and applications because the categories show the ignorance of so-called political correctness and its labeling. one could say my "link" to africa is far greater than many black "african-americans" who have to look back hundreds of years to find a relative that actually lived in africa, whereas my parents were born there. i don't think the term 'black' is racist, and i think black, white, arab, asian are terms that have nothing to with country or continent. there are black north africans and white ones - yet in the u.s. only blacks are considered "african-american." it's so stupid. i think it's much more appropriate and respectful to refer to someone as "Nigerian" or "South African" or "Moroccan". What the hell does African-American mean anyway? i've thought about checking that box on college/ scholarhips applications and such. if they're going to use such ignorant stupid categories than i don't feel bad about using the system and taking advantage of more funding/better chance of admission.
Why do you ASS-U-ME that all Blacks in America want to be called African-Americans? They don't!!!!
My friend gets fired up when called African-american. His family came from England to the Us. He family has been in the US for three generations!!
President Truman ffought hard to get rid of "Hyphenated" Americans. Why can't you and I and the guys down the street all Just be Americans and proud of that fact.
Just so you know according to The anthropologists all Hom-sapiens came from Africa originally. So I don't care what colour you are or where your ancestry of the last 20,000 years came from. You and I and everybody else is an African American!!!!!!
I put that down whenever I am asked what my race is on an official form. I am just waiting for someone to challenge me on it. you should do the same. Your race is either "HUMAN" or "AFRICAN". Those two answers are the only ones that you should ever give.