UPenn swimmer comes out as trans / switches to women's team after competing on men's team for 3 years and is dominating NCAA

We tried that but the transphobes opposed that as well. Equal prizes and mediocre athletes getting money made them froth at the mouth.

Seemed to have left out a few facts, haven't you?

https://www.bigtrial.net/2021/12/lawsuit-pillow-talk-conspiracy-between.html

Fierceton was indeed removed from her mother's home after being physically abused and she entered foster care at the beginning of her junior year in high school. She had also bounced from one foster family to another while working a series of jobs to pay her own way.

None of the members of her foster family had ever been to college and neither her foster parents nor her biological parents were helping to pay her way at Penn.

"Mackenzie had in fact never denied that she came from a well-off, educated background prior to entering foster care, and her student records at Penn had always made that abundantly clear," wrote Penn professors Anne Norton and Rogers M. Smith in an yet unpublished article that they have submitted to The Chronicle of Higher Education, entitled, "The Mendacity of the Meritocrats, A Tale of Student Abuse."

"Still, in selecting Rhodes candidates, Penn officials had heard what they wanted to hear, and told Mackenzie’s story in the way that they wanted to tell it," the professors wrote. "The Philadelphia Inquirer had done the same when reporting on her Rhodes award. As the media buzz grew, Mackenzie’s high school time in foster care was made to sound like a lifetime in foster care, despite the precision of Mackenzie’s own statements and her subsequent efforts at correction."

Be "more forward looking"? Are you a demonstration of this yourself or just another old-fashioned guy? A guy, in other words. And not "adventurous".

Tatar... wrote:

[quote]KudzuRunner wrote:

[quote]astro wrote:

We tried that but the transphobes opposed that as well. Equal prizes and mediocre athletes getting money made them froth at the mouth.

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=10969683

Thanks. I somehow missed that thread. Well, I'm a fan of turning the men's division into an open division and letting everybody except biological women compete there. Some would call that queering the open division. Great! Let's do that.

In the thread you've flagged, I agree with poster middle ground. But yes, if there's a third, non-binary division, there's always theoretically the possibility of somebody gaming the system.

Let me ask you a simple question. Do you think trans athletes who want to compete in the category of their gender identity are all "woke revolutionaries"? Do you think people in the "LGBTQ+" community speak with a single voice? I think of them more like "an alliance of convenience." They have to band together because they are such small minorities on their own. But deep down, there are many discords within their movement. For example, many in L and G look at B with suspicion, and LGB and T are often at odds. But they don't want those disputes to come to the surface because that will be exploited by rightwing cultural warriors. Regarding this issue, I think the idea that "gender is fluid" is incompatible with serious gender dysphoria that starts in early childhood. After all, if gender is fluid, why would anyone find such consistent dysphoria with their assigned sex? You can grow your hair, wear makeups, skirts and dresses, etc. without being a "girl." But that is apparently not enough for some. They want to be treated as "girls." This is the exact OPPOSITE of gender fluidity. They are not denying the existence of non-binary or agender people. But they think they are girls, and not agender, non-binary or gender fluid. I don't know how actual trans athletes who compete in high school and college think about this issue. And they are not likely to tell how they really feel, because they could face backlash if they say something politically incorrect. (Just ask Natalie Wynn, who got cancelled by trans activists.) And I would not be surprised if there is significant disagreement amongst themselves.

KudzuRunner wrote:

Tatar... wrote:

[quote]KudzuRunner wrote:

[quote]astro wrote:

We tried that but the transphobes opposed that as well. Equal prizes and mediocre athletes getting money made them froth at the mouth.

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=10969683

Thanks. I somehow missed that thread. Well, I'm a fan of turning the men's division into an open division and letting everybody except biological women compete there. Some would call that queering the open division. Great! Let's do that.

In the thread you've flagged, I agree with poster middle ground. But yes, if there's a third, non-binary division, there's always theoretically the possibility of somebody gaming the system.

As I wrote on another thread, that will not satisfy the vocal minority who would not want to allow trans athletes in ANY category.

Somehow missed it three days ago, but the Washington Post carried a long-ish article about Lia T. My reading is that it tries hard to present “both sides” but the overwhelming evidence is against trans women competing in women’s sports. And that is the general tone of the 6367 comments that the story generated. Here are just a few, from the first 200 or so:

Ms Thomas is playing the system. She is abiding with the rules but the rules are not ethical. She cannot ignore that she has an unfair advantage over all the girls in her team.

You’re asking the girls on her team to « wait » and not complain while they are losing scholarships and opportunities is both cruel and sexist.

Would Lia Thomas supporters have thought it was fair if the former Will Thomas decided that he identified as a 60 year old man, and insisted on competing in some masters or seniors class against swimmers who were decades past their prime, when he himself was in his early 20s?

Lia is psychologically female but biologically male. Not competing against biological women seems a small price to pay for living the rest of your life the way you feel.

Choices carry trade-offs… All creatures must bow before biology to some extent. It is just an ineluctable fact. We cannot create our own reality beyond a certain point.

And glimmer of hope and reason:

Just a few months ago in the Comments section of stories like this I would be immediately labeled an ignorant transphobic (or worse) for suggesting that women should not have to compete against men. Where have all those people gone? Could it be that the tides are turning?

Men do women's gymnastics better than women.

the world turned upside down wrote:

Thomas returns to the pool this Saturday at noon in a home meet against Dartmouth and Yale. Just a few days ago, Penn announced that their winter sports will continue without any spectators. Eliminates any possibility of booing or a team protest in front of the public.

Curious how many people can pick out Thomas in this photo in less than 3 seconds.

https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/12/pennswimdive-instagram-lia-thomas.jpg?quality=90&strip=all

Immediately.

As they say, "she sticks out like dog's balls"

Aaand the U Penn President resigns / retires.

Maybe she thought she had better things to do with her time than try to sort out or defend Lia Thomas and MacKenzie Morrison-Fierceton. Now, where's that lap that these headaches can fall into?

KudzuRunner wrote:

On the other hand: when it comes to HS, collegiate, and Olympic athletics: two divisions (men's and women's) and ONLY two divisions.

Get rid of the gender categories in sports, it's antiquated. Men and women compete for the same jobs in today's society - do the same for sports. Everyone will be treated fairly and equally and should be happy under such a system.

equality for everybody wrote:

KudzuRunner wrote:

On the other hand: when it comes to HS, collegiate, and Olympic athletics: two divisions (men's and women's) and ONLY two divisions.

Get rid of the gender categories in sports, it's antiquated. Men and women compete for the same jobs in today's society - do the same for sports. Everyone will be treated fairly and equally and should be happy under such a system.

Actually, everyone would be unhappy besides you. Ending women's sports because of a single competitive NCAA athlete, makes sense to you?

SDSU Aztec wrote:

equality for everybody wrote:

Get rid of the gender categories in sports, it's antiquated. Men and women compete for the same jobs in today's society - do the same for sports. Everyone will be treated fairly and equally and should be happy under such a system.

Actually, everyone would be unhappy besides you. Ending women's sports because of a single competitive NCAA athlete, makes sense to you?

No but because its the correct thing to do. Why is there an extra category based on genetics? We dont have extra university courses for less intelligent people either. One category is the most fair

sayyestonepotism wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Actually, everyone would be unhappy besides you. Ending women's sports because of a single competitive NCAA athlete, makes sense to you?

No but because its the correct thing to do. Why is there an extra category based on genetics? We dont have extra university courses for less intelligent people either. One category is the most fair

You think it's fair, but if schools tried to do such a thing, it would take about 5 minutes for them to lose in court. It seems that you don't like women much.

If some male athletes with really good lawyers protest, Title IX would be ruled unconstitutional.

lawyer knock wrote:

If some male athletes with really good lawyers protest, Title IX would be ruled unconstitutional.

This article calls him or a sensation, more like Cheating to the Extreme, A Man pretending to be A Woman to compete against Woman.

I don't know why they put up with this nonsense. This wouldn't fly 10 years ago or in most countries now.