Niyonsaba 8:19.08 3k - #6 all-time ever

There was a position in there?

It does at least appear to rule out people with testes in women's sport.

Awsi Dooger wrote:

The aftermath of these Niyonsaba races are now every bit as awkward as the 800 for years. Niyonsaba turns around and expects sincere congratulations. She receives a reluctant one or two.

I found it interesting that there was no awkwardness at World U20 with Masilingi and Mboma. Other runners were embracing them as if there were nothing unusual with the situation. I wonder what the difference is.

Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote:

Awsi Dooger wrote:

The aftermath of these Niyonsaba races are now every bit as awkward as the 800 for years. Niyonsaba turns around and expects sincere congratulations. She receives a reluctant one or two.

I found it interesting that there was no awkwardness at World U20 with Masilingi and Mboma. Other runners were embracing them as if there were nothing unusual with the situation. I wonder what the difference is.

Testes.

I'll say it then. She's doing something very wrong, running against XX women when she knows very well she has an unfair advantage against them. Because it's temporarily allowed by the rules doesn't make it right. Shame on her.

Ancient Marathoner wrote:

I'll say it then. She's doing something very wrong, running against XX women when she knows very well she has an unfair advantage against them. Because it's temporarily allowed by the rules doesn't make it right. Shame on her.

This^

Just because there're loopholes in rules doesn't mean you should exploit them.

Lol at this RunRagged user. I don't think it's fair for DSD athletes to compete in women's category, but yikes. What an ugly series of takes. "Terfs are the modern witches" what a martyr.

Anyway, crazy people aside. I have one question for supporters of letting DSD athletes compete without regulation that I have never had answered properly. Okay, so your body both possesses and is able to use drastically elevated levels of testosterone. Cool, that's just how folks are born, let em' run cause they were raised a woman. Fine. If not testosterone then, what should the definition for gender competition categories be instead? If it's purely based on gender identity and testosterone is redundant, then shouldn't trans women be allowed to compete who haven't undergone full hormone therapy yet? Obviously not, overwhelming majority of dsd supporters aren't advocating for that. But if not testosterone, then what?

RunRagged wrote:

paolo78 wrote:

to me it doesn't really matter, and I would make it even simpler: testosterone is the only "measurable" way to distinguish between male and female according to their biological characteristics.

Thanks paolo for expressing a view that's 100% misogynistic and male supremacist.

The "78" in your user name - to which ancient century or millennia does it refer?

So let me understand... I am misogynistic because i'm simply describing what biologically differentiates male and female? Male supremacist? Come on, be serious. There's really no connection, or if there is please explain your reasoning behind because you're the only one who sees it.

I'm only talking about sport, just that. I'm just trying to describe why there are separate categories in sports for people born with XX and people born with XY, which is the same exact reason why there are separate categories for people under a certain age and people who unfortunately have disabilities (i really hope now i won't be accused of saying that women or kids are disabled, but i'm not so sure).

Women can do everything, in many cases better than men, but this is not the right place to talk about what makes men and women different or about gender and how people identify themselves. In sports, the production of testosterone and the consequence of that (on muscles, bones, level of hemoglobin, etc...) is THE single characteristic that gives people born with 46XY a natural, big advantage over people born with 46XX. I'm just making it a biology topic, which is to me the right thing to do whilst regulating sport events, without being influenced by other cultural, phylosophical or political arguments.

And i'm trying to explain that the difference in testosterone level is in no way comparable to the difference in other characteristics that give for instance an advantage to east african people in long distances, to black people in 100 and 200, or to white people in other type of events. In those cases, there's always a "mix" that balances things out and gives more opportunities to compete and win at the highest possible level also to someone who doesn't have the "ideal" biology for that particular event, and the difference in top performance is anyway much more limited (e.g. Christophe Lemaitre's 100m personal best is about 3,5% higher than Bolt's WR, Mennea's long-time 200m WR is just about 2% higher than current Bolt's WR).

When it comes to the difference created by testosterone, there's no discussion, no interpretation, nothing can balance it. It just creates a 10-12% delta between top performance of male and female. And this is a very good reason to keep people with different levels of testosterone competing separately. Simple. Then we can debate whether limiting the level of testosterone is the right way to allow a fair competition, or there must be a separate category for DSD people. Personally i'm open to both, i'm just not expert enough to understand how limiting testosterone in a body who has produced it for years can really create a fair competition. Otherwise let's just allow all human beings competeting against each other with no limitation, and good luck to women. Wouldn't THAT be misogynistic, knowing that biologically we'r not same? But maybe i'm wrong, i'm just a male supermacist, and one day a female person will run faster than whoever else in the world... Who knows.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote:

I found it interesting that there was no awkwardness at World U20 with Masilingi and Mboma. Other runners were embracing them as if there were nothing unusual with the situation. I wonder what the difference is.

Testes.

Your obsession with testes is amazing. But I am pretty much sure Masilingi and Mboma have internal testes.

Ditto

Ancient Marathoner wrote:

I'll say it then. She's doing something very wrong, running against XX women when she knows very well she has an unfair advantage against them. Because it's temporarily allowed by the rules doesn't make it right. Shame on her.

Ditto

Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote:

Jo72 wrote:

And they make the sport visually unattractive. It is creepy to see an androgynous person (at best, sometimes more andro than gynous) clearly sticking out (both in body shape and movement) among female competitors. I don't really know what's wrong with people who have lost their antenna for this weirdness. It's not quite as pronounced with Niyonsaba as with others but still obvious.

This could be the worst possible argument one could make about restricting DSD athletes in women's sports. So it is about how they "look"? I thought the argument was about how they had "unfair" advantage over other women.

So are you okay with Dutee Chand, since she looks female both in body shape and mannerism? How about Christine Mboma? She also looks female. Should that change anything?

No. It's obviously not the main argument. But I think most people who were not taken aback at the visual impression of lots of 800m races with Semenya etc. in them (not a portrait or still of Semenya but the actual look of a race), are either lying or have become insensitive or suppressing irration because they do not want to appear unfair.

There are no new arguments needed. They were all given wrt to the Semenya case. It is exactly the same case, the only difference, that it's not three but (for the time being) only one DSD person dominating females in another distance.

And if one thinks about it, a 3-10k runner with 1:55 800m best has the potential to be more dominant that a 400/800m type with 1:54 best.

What everyone knew before it was clouded by dubious science (doing statistics with too few/preselected data), becomes clear again, that high testosterone beats almost any other advantage.

Let them run with T reduced to median female levels. If they still dominate, we can talk again. But they won't; Semenya lost 5 sec. in the 800m with T levels still way above normal females.

So everyone who thinks, all is well, has to argue for the 400-mile be opened again for Semenya etc. Because it is clearly unfair that there should be a restriction (or other way round, the 400-1500m running women protected from some competition unlike the ones running 200m or 5000m)

Niyonsaba has been active for years and won lots of 800m races for a while before the restricted ban, so she knows clearly what is going on. This is not against the rules (because WA failed in making good rules), but neither is it a confused/desperate situation the teenaged Semenya found herself in.

high school xc coach wrote:

Jo72 wrote:

We know the answer to the question. There was no woman in existence before who has run 1:55 and 8:19. Does anyone think Mu could run 8:19 with one year focus on long distance?

Niyonsaba is not in wrong event but in the wrong class.

Do we know if Koko or Cranny might run 8:10 or 8:00 if they were brought to Niyonsaba's T-level artificially? Mu might run 1:49 with a bit more T?

Maybe someone is volunteering to try...

hassan closest thing to something like this.

something needs to be done quickly. the craziest thing is how quickly it has happened and how much potential she still has for growth.

Also in the 200. It can't continue like this - if you have a women's category, ensure only XX women can compete in it. We all know it makes sense. You don't prejudice the rights of billions of women to look after the handful with a chromosomal advantage.

douglas burke wrote:

high school xc coach wrote:

hassan closest thing to something like this.

something needs to be done quickly. the craziest thing is how quickly it has happened and how much potential she still has for growth.

Niyonsaba did NOTHING WRONG, She was born that Way, Wouldn't Intersex have a big disadvantage against Men? The same condition she was born with that helps her against Woman would disadvantage her against Men.

That said how do the people Justify The New Zealand Weightlifter? and The 2 Connecticut high schoolers? and the Division 2 400 Hurdler? They were BORN MALE and they let them compete as Women, yet people complain about people who are Born with a Condition.

I can't justify being against someone who was born with a Condition, On the Other Hand The Men Pretending to be Woman are pure Evil, Cheating to the Max, worse than Ped's.

+1 exactly her condition provides advantage in female events but disadvantage in male event you are talking pure sense

PersonAC wrote:

douglas burke wrote:

Niyonsaba did NOTHING WRONG, She was born that Way, Wouldn't Intersex have a big disadvantage against Men? The same condition she was born with that helps her against Woman would disadvantage her against Men.

That said how do the people Justify The New Zealand Weightlifter? and The 2 Connecticut high schoolers? and the Division 2 400 Hurdler? They were BORN MALE and they let them compete as Women, yet people complain about people who are Born with a Condition.

I can't justify being against someone who was born with a Condition, On the Other Hand The Men Pretending to be Woman are pure Evil, Cheating to the Max, worse than Ped's.

+1 exactly her condition provides advantage in female events but disadvantage in male event you are talking pure sense

most people are not supporting the transgender athletes either. but that is a tired, already lost battle. At least they are expected to lower their testosterone on the int'l level. I don't think they are even doing that on the high school level, which is especially sad.

Armstronglivs wrote:

khcglhc wrote:

Are you also suggesting that we should also have a separate category for East Africans men in distances over 1 mile?

Is that how we are going to do that?

There is a separate category for E African men; it's called men's competition. Nyonsaba would be welcome to compete in it, because she shares something in common with those competitors.

No because her intersex condition will in turn give her a huge disadvantage in female events there are only 2 solutions to the problem DSD have their own category or DSD are banned from athletics. This is criminally unfair to the DSD athletes but it is better to be unfair to the tiny minority than the vast majority

you do know that all time = ever, right?

Please don't be deterred from posting RunRagged, they seem like one of the few posters on this topic that actually know something.

potato_salad wrote:

the East and North Africans do not have different organs from other men.

if they had a second heart, or a third lung, they would definitely be banned from competing with the normal men.

Just because you can’t put your finger on the genetic advantage of the East and North Africans doesn’t mean that don’t have one.

They clearly do.

BTW: is there a rule that says that if you have a second heart, you can’t compete in men category?

Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

Testes.

Your obsession with testes is amazing. But I am pretty much sure Masilingi and Mboma have internal testes.

You've just explained my "obsession". Next question - should people with testes (and thus male levels of testosterone) be competing in women's sport? And, further, should the IAAF rules on testosterone apply to all events, and not just the 400 to the mile?