Ross Tucker on Gidey's new WR: It’s almost as if world records don’t mean as much as they used to

Meh. He was literally going off when Marc Scott ran 27:10 suggesting he only PR'd because of the spikes.

I'm all for reasonable takes and conversations about spikes, but Ross Tucker is a sensationalist who hides behind his (formidable) credentials to make hot takes. Which I guess, power to him, but I wouldn't lose sleep over his views.

But I'd also throw up a general question. When were world records trust worthy? 1960-1990 you have mass state sponsored doping in Eastern Bloc countries producing insane world records, some still on the books and untouchable today eg not even Semenya could break the W800 record. Not to mention massive shifts in shoe and track tech across this period.

90s-early 2000s you have the golden age of EPO where for a good chunk of that period there were almost no effective tests for detecting it. Sprints through distance events had scandals galore, athletes popping out with fast times then vanishing, and probably most flagrant of all China making a mockery of the women's distance world records and claiming it was all down to turtle and fungus soup. Pacers also become the norm in this period (had a cranky high school coach calling millenial runners soft because in his day nobody had pacers).

The 2000s-2010s improve marginally, but the blood passport only picks up steam in the last ten years. We have multiple infamous "dirtiest races of all time," the RUSADA scandal, Jama Aden - coach of WR holder has to flee into mini exile after getting caught up to his eyeballs in banned substances. Even Usain Bolt had numerous training partners and other associates dinged. Asbel Kiprop gets popped (closest anyone recently come to the M1500 WR). That's not even touching the "grey area" or rumour mill stuff like NOP, Mo Farah, Paula Radcliffe obliterating the marathon world record so badly it only just got beaten.

Like, I love track and field to death. But please, when in our beautiful sport's history were world records these awesome gold standards we could look up to? At any point in our history could we look back 30 years and say "yeah that's a fair comparison?" Compare a state of doping/anti doping/track surfaces/shoes and spikes/pacing/pace lights/professionalism 1955 to 1985. Compare 1985-2015. Heck make it a 20 year window and compare all that 1998-2018.

*Let's have educated, evidence and data based conversations about spikes.* But can people leave their rose colored glasses in their cases and quit moralizing about how you just can't trust track and field anymore. If you could trust the sport in 2011, 2001, 1991, 1981, or 1971 you can damn trust it in 2021. If for some reason a pair of Nike spikes has triggered your trust harder than Jarmila Kratochvílová, Wang Junxia, or Lamine Diack... I really don't know what else to say to you.

opinions are like.... wrote:

But I'd also throw up a general question. When were world records trust worthy?

Trustworthy? Never.

The use of stimulants and strength-building substances in sport is held to date back as far as Ancient Greece, but it was during the 1920s that restrictions about drug use in sport were first thought necessary. In 1928 the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) - athletics' world governing body - became the first international sports federation to ban doping.

I would argue that clean world records were possible until the 60s. Prior to that, doping was mostly primitive so that clean athletes had a chance.

But then, steroids and blood transfusion became common place, and once the Cold War doping era began, it was basically over for clean athletes.

How the f have you managed to write a paragraph that long about doping and not mention American state-sanctioned doping like BALCO? Either way, yes, doping has been present for a long time and WR's have not been trustworthy for a long time, but now we have mass doping + mechanical doping creating a full on clown fiesta situation.

I don't know what is going on with the sport right now regarding the huge prevalence of fast times. I am not mad nor jealous of those who get to wear the new spikes but there is such a strong link between the shoes and the fast times. If it is only the shoes no big deal. Nobody is cheating with the new shoes. I think you need to re-calibrate the quality of performance with the new shoes but so be it. The fast performances just run so deep into the performances. It's not like every single runners suddenly got that much better at the exact same time because of suddenly superior coaching or race schedules or attitudes.

Absolutely nailed it.

Thank you!

I’ve watched Star Wars movies more realistic than that race. Don’t get me wrong, both were entertaining. I’ll probably even watch them again.

Look at the progressions of the men's and women's 5k and 10k:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5000_metres_world_record_progression

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10,000_metres_world_record_progression

Is there anything that suggests we are seeing something historically unusual? The 90's may look unusual. Gebrsalassie set 7 world records between the 5 and 10. The fact that 12 to 16 year old world records are being broken indicates that world records don't mean as much anymore? Cheptegei and Gidey just ended the longest gaps we have seen the history of the 5k world records.

team Unruly Bush wrote:

Cheptegei and Gidey just ended the longest gaps we have seen the history of the 5k world records.

Yes. That shows how special the old records were, and how special the current circumstances (spikes, Covid, wavelights) are.

History, 5000 m world records?

Men, no. of world records:

70 - 74: 2

75 - 79: 2

80 - 84: 2

85 - 89: 2

90 - 94: 1

95 - 99: 5

00 - 04: 1

05 - 09: 0

10 - 14: 0

15 - 19: 0

Women, no. of world records:

70 - 74: 0

75 - 79: 4

80 - 84: 7

85 - 89: 2

90 - 94: 0

95 - 99: 3

00 - 04: 1

05 - 09: 3

10 - 14: 0

15 - 19: 0

team Unruly Bush wrote:

Look at the progressions of the men's and women's 5k and 10k:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5000_metres_world_record_progressionhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10,000_metres_world_record_progression

Is there anything that suggests we are seeing something historically unusual? The 90's may look unusual. Gebrsalassie set 7 world records between the 5 and 10. The fact that 12 to 16 year old world records are being broken indicates that world records don't mean as much anymore? Cheptegei and Gidey just ended the longest gaps we have seen the history of the 5k world records.

So you think the record should just continue to drop at the historical rate? Humans should be able to run 3 minutes for 5K in the year 2462?

Balcoman wrote:

So you think the record should just continue to drop at the historical rate? Humans should be able to run 3 minutes for 5K in the year 2462?

You think the records should happen to level off in your lifetime?

The "old records", i.e. records pre-2020, are special because you have a connection to them.

1950s might have been the fairest era. But even in the pre-steroid era, there are rumors amphetamines and such. Additionally, it's not exactly fair when competition was basically limited to the North America, Europe, and Oceania.

Which is really just subjective. Was this his take for Kipchoge's first sub-2 attempt, as well?

Tucker is a huge believer in the shoe tech. He is in the Rojo camp. I would estimate he thinks super-responders can benefit 3-4 minutes in a full marathon, 1:30-2 minutes in a half. For the track: 3-5 seconds in a 1,500, 10-15 seconds in a 5,000, and 20-30 seconds in a 10,000.

Now, I'd lean to cut these numbers in half, but we'd need more research to know for sure. That's still a nice immediate bounce that would square with some pretty sweet times that we are seeing in the 5,000 and 10,000 especially.

the records mean just as much but comparing them with pre super shoes is difficult.

athletes are setting a new baseline line. people need to adjust their thinking and move on.

We all know that the equipment is giving everyone a boost. And the COVID year of cancelled meets has given athletes a lot more time to train and build for the 2021 Olympics instead of having back to back years of WCs and then Olympics with two Diamond League seasons mixed in. That is hopefully a once in a lifetime event.

We may also be in a new era of doping. Race directors love WRs and managers love the cash they generate from sponsors. The 5k/10k races have not had any big head to head rivalries for a while. On the men's side, the days of Bekele, Farah are coming to a close. On the women's side, T-ru, Defar, etc. are no longer dominant. WRs are a way for everyone involved to create new starts and rebuild interest in the sport with new big match ups.

Ayana took 14 seconds off the last 10k WR - what cheating method caused this huge drop in time? Why does nobody blame the Vic 3's which had just came out on that WR being broken? I am not sure why you can only blame Dragonflies when a WR gets taken down out of nowhere.

In reality, it should not be all that surprising to anyone who's been paying attention that runners like Hassan and Gidey are breaking records - Hassan has been running stupid fast times for years now and Gidey is young but has always shown talent, it's not like either of them are coming out of nowhere.

Let it Rupp wrote:

Ayana took 14 seconds off the last 10k WR - what cheating method caused this huge drop in time? Why does nobody blame the Vic 3's which had just came out on that WR being broken? I am not sure why you can only blame Dragonflies when a WR gets taken down out of nowhere.

In reality, it should not be all that surprising to anyone who's been paying attention that runners like Hassan and Gidey are breaking records - Hassan has been running stupid fast times for years now and Gidey is young but has always shown talent, it's not like either of them are coming out of nowhere.

I am a f*cking idiot, I checked after I wrote this and Ayana was actually running in Adidas.

My take on this was that Ross expects there to be some sort of period where no one tries to break a WR after one has been set. I seem to recall Ovett/Coe trading the WR in short time span back long ago.