I keep pacing like an idiot, ideal splits to run sub 50?

Blocks and sprint spikes will with out a doubt get your under the barrier and then the pacing will come with race experience go more conservative on the first 200

to break 50, you can't go through 200 in much over 24, so I don't think you are too far off.

For a sprinter, this typically means high 22.xx 200 ability from blocks. I've seen 22.8, 22.9. This might workout different for distance runners. Hopefully somebody who has worked with faster mid d/d guys can chime in.

i think a top notch distance/mid d guy can do it off of a 23.1,23.2 for a standing 200m pr

When I was running those times I was going through in 23 high or 24 low. It sounds like you just don't quite have the 400 fitness to get there quite yet. 51.x is a lightyear from 49.x by the way. You may want to set some more incremental goals in the interim.

You've got to keep something for the last 200, but you have to get out really hard. It's that second 200 that you save a little bit, but the momentum of your first 100 blasting out will still keep the speed decent the second 200.

Maybe you're on the gas the entire first 200, don't do that. Sprint the first 100 meters fully, let off SLIGHTLY, just don't be full gas on the second 200, then at 150 crank it again. And yes, do a block start and start practicing that. I was not a fast guy at all, always the slowest person, but I got down to a 52 which I think is respectable for how slow I was as a freshman (65) and this is how I paced on the 52.

highhoppingworm wrote:

When I was running those times I was going through in 23 high or 24 low. It sounds like you just don't quite have the 400 fitness to get there quite yet. 51.x is a lightyear from 49.x by the way. You may want to set some more incremental goals in the interim.

What he said. Now we run pretty much the same time for the 400 but just from eyeballing your splits you haven't developed the speed reserve yet enough that going out in 24 mid or faster would be well within your level of comfort, something you'd need to have happen to go sub 50. Try holding back a bit more your first 200, go through in 25 low/24 high and see if you can break into the 50.x range first. If your main focus is like the 15 don't sweat too much, it'll probably take a while to build enough top end/speed reserve to get there.

CopperRunner wrote:

I think I can run 11 low for 100m if I can get my start down, so I feel like the speed is there, and I’m a middle distance runner, so the endurance definitely is too.

The aerobic endurance of a middle distance runner is something else entirely from the speed endurance required of a 400 runner. You need more specific training. Come at it from both ends. So from the fast end, you're looking at 100-200 meters at 95%+ of top speed and at least 5 mintues between reps. From the other side, stuff like 4x200 at 400 pace with short recovery between reps and long recovery between sets, or reps of 300-600 (just a few reps at very close to maximum effort with very long recovery between reps).

high school xc coach wrote:

to break 50, you can't go through 200 in much over 24, so I don't think you are too far off.

For a sprinter, this typically means high 22.xx 200 ability from blocks. I've seen 22.8, 22.9. This might workout different for distance runners. Hopefully somebody who has worked with faster mid d/d guys can chime in.

OP, what is your best 200 time? Do you have the 200 meter times that are presented above?

The equation is simple for a properly trained 400m runner.

100 PR X 2 = 200 PR

200 PR + 1s = opening 200

opening 200 + 2 s = closing 200

For an elite, the 100 should be 10.0, the 200 should be 20.0, and the 400 should be 21+23 = 44.

For you, a 11.0 100m runner, your 200 should be 22.0, and you should race a 400 as 23+25 = 48.

If your 100 is more like 11.5 and you run 23.0 for 200, it will be closer: 24+26=50.0.

just the fakks wrote:

The equation is simple for a properly trained 400m runner.

100 PR X 2 = 200 PR

200 PR + 1s = opening 200

opening 200 + 2 s = closing 200

For an elite, the 100 should be 10.0, the 200 should be 20.0, and the 400 should be 21+23 = 44.

For you, a 11.0 100m runner, your 200 should be 22.0, and you should race a 400 as 23+25 = 48.

If your 100 is more like 11.5 and you run 23.0 for 200, it will be closer: 24+26=50.0.

I strongly suspect the OP is not running low 11 FAT. If I recall correctly he has like a 9:30 2 mile PR as well. You line that up with someone running 11.1 and you are way faster than he is at the moment. My guess would be closer to 11.7/11.8 in a real race which would line up pretty well to his current PR.

“Push, Pace, Position & Pray”

https://speedendurance.com/2007/06/27/michael-johnsons-racing-strategy-in-the-400-meters/

Ziga does really interesting analyses of sprints, this one has 100m splits for the 2016 Olympic final. You’ll see elites also slow a lot in the last 100m! And second 200 1-3secs slower than first.

https://zigapskraba.com/2016/09/01/stride-length-vs-stride-frequency-in-the-400-metres/

You have the right idea in that 23-high at 200 is definitely the pace you need to be to break 50, however as a mid distance runner you're going to need to work on speed, speed, and more speed to hit your goal. You likely have enough endurance, but I'm guessing 23-high at 200 is probably pretty close to your 200 PR and that you don't have enough speed reserve to make 23-high smooth and comfortable. Fast 300s, fast hills, and genuinely short speed training are your friends. You need to be at a point where you can running 200s in races under 23 seconds if you're going to hit a 23-high 200 split in your 400 with much chance of hanging on, so focus on developing your speed and you'll have a chance of getting there! 23.9 + 26 = 49.9 so develop speed such that 23.9 isn't killing you off like it currently is. Good luck!

I appreciate the crud out of this thread so far. Thanks guys. Good stuff

coach wrote:

high school xc coach wrote:

to break 50, you can't go through 200 in much over 24, so I don't think you are too far off.

For a sprinter, this typically means high 22.xx 200 ability from blocks. I've seen 22.8, 22.9. This might workout different for distance runners. Hopefully somebody who has worked with faster mid d/d guys can chime in.

OP, what is your best 200 time? Do you have the 200 meter times that are presented above?

To be honest, I haven’t ran an FAT 200m in almost 5 years, and that was a chubby 5’7 kid running a 29.6, so pretty irrelevant these days.

Once I can learn proper block starts, low-sub 23 seems reasonable.

CopperRunner wrote:

coach wrote:

OP, what is your best 200 time? Do you have the 200 meter times that are presented above?

To be honest, I haven’t ran an FAT 200m in almost 5 years, and that was a chubby 5’7 kid running a 29.6, so pretty irrelevant these days.

Once I can learn proper block starts, low-sub 23 seems reasonable.

See Bootylock's response above. Speed reserve .