Help me understand Joe Rogan's vaccination stance for people in their low-20s

[quote]Harambe wrote:

The mRNA vaccines are biochemically quite simple.

mRNA vaccines have been studied in people for ~10 years.

Yep. And they never worked

One thing that I just don't understand is how you are protecting others by getting the jab? They (the experts) still say that you still need to wear a mask, even if vaccinated, as you can transmit the virus to other people. I understand that by getting the jab you are (potentially) protecting yourself, but I fail to see how you are protecting others. Maybe I'm missing something?

Arrhenius wrote:

They (the experts) still say that you still need to wear a mask, even if vaccinated, as you can transmit the virus to other people. I understand that by getting the jab you are (potentially) protecting yourself, but I fail to see how you are protecting others. Maybe I'm missing something?

You are missing something. Read through the new guidelines and note that once you are vaccinated there are lots of relaxing of what CDC suggests:

Getting a little heat for this.

https://www.axios.com/joe-rogan-walks-back-anti-vaccination-spotify-4ab56dcf-b60e-41c6-9c49-fe7f22be7d04.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/policy/healthcare/551057-joe-rogan-clarifies-vaccine-comments-im-not-an-anti-vax-person%3famp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.tmz.com/2021/04/29/joe-rogan-walks-back-covid-19-vaccine-comments-moron-not-anti-vaxx/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/deadline.com/2021/04/dr-anthony-fauci-responds-to-joe-rogan-anti-vax-comments-1234746069/amp/

Arrhenius wrote:

One thing that I just don't understand is how you are protecting others by getting the jab? They (the experts) still say that you still need to wear a mask, even if vaccinated, as you can transmit the virus to other people. I understand that by getting the jab you are (potentially) protecting yourself, but I fail to see how you are protecting others. Maybe I'm missing something?

The severity of a case is proportional to how much virus one is initially exposed to because there is a race between the virus reproducing and the body's immune response ramping up to fight it. A higher initial "viral load" gives the virus that much of a head start over the immune response.

If you're vaccinated and still contract the virus, you will typically have less of it to shed hence will expose others to a lower infectious viral load, all else being equal. Masks have a similar effect of reducing, but not eliminating the amount of virus a contagious person exposes to others. These effects are cumulative, that is, if you have less virus to expel because of the vaccine, the mask further reduces this amount.

Arrhenius wrote:

One thing that I just don't understand is how you are protecting others by getting the jab? They (the experts) still say that you still need to wear a mask, even if vaccinated, as you can transmit the virus to other people. I understand that by getting the jab you are (potentially) protecting yourself, but I fail to see how you are protecting others. Maybe I'm missing something?

Consider that the "experts" main goal is not *truth*. It's getting to a certain outcome with regards to COVID.

I suspect they are aware that vaccinated asymptomatic transmission is very, very close to zero. I suspect they are also aware that tons of people will make excuses or lie about masking. Requiring the masks to still be worn is *probably* being done to keep high social pressure on unvaccinated in hopes of controlling spread.

For the record, I still find that behavior abhorrent (lying to achieve your ends).

If you look with respect to you, the individual, I think your concerns are absolutely legitimate. I think you're a little higher on the "discomfort with unknown unknowns" spectrum than most, but there isn't anything wrong with being a more careful person. Risk tolerance in that regard is very much up to the individual for any isolated activities.

Where this becomes weaker is what I mentioned before, you're failing to consider the value of prosocial behavior in a competent and successful civilization. Generally, being part of such a thing requires at times that you expose yourself to "needless" risk in a way that is harmonious with society.

This isn't *really* an argument to change your views, but it is a "Hey, I don't think this is obvious to most people so consider giving it some thought for future situations".

None of the COVID-19 vaccines have been evaluated for long term adverse reactions. That alone should cause one to pause and think twice. Why take a vaccine for something that is highly unlikely to kill me for which I have a greater than 99% chance of surviving.

The Nuremberg code speaks to voluntary consent being essential. The right of individual to control their body trumps the interest of others in obtaining knowledge or benefits . No one should be coerced or blackmailed into taking an experimental vaccine..

Joe Rogan was right . Each individual should have the right to make their own decision without elements of duress, especially in a free country. Vaccines are not without risk . People die every day after being vaccinated. Where there are risks there must be voluntary consent... unless you’re and athlete then you have no rights .

Fauci and the experts have been wrong about nearly everything . Now they want our athletes to take a vaccine, then tell us we will still have to wear masks (because they aren’t sure the vaccine works).. while simultaneously telling us the vaccine is effective. Then telling us a vaccine is safe while simultaneously pausing a vaccine because people are getting vaccine induced thrombocytopenia and thrombosis.

Marietta Tar Heel wrote:

Baby Boomer Bodybuilding wrote:

That's completely wrong: Anti-vaxxers tend to be better educated and more affluent:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/Health/parents-vaccinate-kids-tend-affluent-educated-experts/story%3fid=60674519https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/ny-news-affluent-educated-vaccine-measles-20190129-story.html%3foutputType=amp

It's the less educated that are mind-controlled by the MSM, appeal to the authoritative medical industrial-complex and are generally incapable of researching anything on their own.

Not talking about the anti-vaxxer group.

Right...but you're pulling a fast one by targeting the "white evangelists" as being less educated & having an anti-science sediment (which many of them are not).

With the anti-vaxx groups (better educated & more affluent), do you think they're going to capitulate and agree to take the Covid vaccines? Lol (when they're against any vaccines...period). The anti-vaxxer groups are against all vaccines including all the Covid vaccines currently on the market:

Anti-vaxxers have a key ally in the making:

Baby Boomer Bodybuilding wrote:

Marietta Tar Heel wrote:

Not talking about the anti-vaxxer group.

Right...but you're pulling a fast one by targeting the "white evangelists" as being less educated & having an anti-science sediment (which many of them are not).

With the anti-vaxx groups (better educated & more affluent), do you think they're going to capitulate and agree to take the Covid vaccines? Lol (when they're against any vaccines...period). The anti-vaxxer groups are against all vaccines including all the Covid vaccines currently on the market:

https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210129/anti-vaxxers-mounting-internet-campaigns-against-covid-19-shots

Anti-vaxxers have a key ally in the making:

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/health-coronavirus-vaccines-skeptic/

Not talking about the anti-vaxxer group.

RECRUITING WOES wrote:

People die every day after being vaccinated. .

Not from the vaccine they don't.

RECRUITING WOES wrote:

None of the COVID-19 vaccines have been evaluated for long term adverse reactions. That alone should cause one to pause and think twice. Why take a vaccine for something that is highly unlikely to kill me for which I have a greater than 99% chance of surviving.

The Nuremberg code speaks to voluntary consent being essential. The right of individual to control their body trumps the interest of others in obtaining knowledge or benefits . No one should be coerced or blackmailed into taking an experimental vaccine..

Joe Rogan was right . Each individual should have the right to make their own decision without elements of duress, especially in a free country. Vaccines are not without risk . People die every day after being vaccinated. Where there are risks there must be voluntary consent... unless you’re and athlete then you have no rights .

Dumb argument rehashed dozens of times in this thread.

The long-tail risk of vaccines is tiny. We have not seen any severe toxicity outside of 1-in-a-million clotting events for the J&J vaccine.

The risk of COVID in young and healthy people is still there. You can be sick for weeks. You can lose training time. You have a rare but present change of struggling for months.

You can also spread the disease to someone more vulnerable who has not been vaccinated, cannot be vaccinated, or did not get a protective response!

There's currently no duress applied to anyone in the USA to get vaccines EXCEPT situations already expecting vaccination: some workplaces, universities, etc. No need to manufacture controversy!

Parsec wrote:

If you look with respect to you, the individual, I think your concerns are absolutely legitimate. I think you're a little higher on the "discomfort with unknown unknowns" spectrum than most, but there isn't anything wrong with being a more careful person. Risk tolerance in that regard is very much up to the individual for any isolated activities.

I disagree. This kind of hedging against long-tail risk for a vaccination that has proven personal and societal benefits makes NO sense unless the person is actively mitigating much more serious risks. It's like driving across the country because you're scared of flying.

The risk-reduction:cost ratio of moving to a city center and walking everywhere to avoid driving is certainly far greater than the negative risk-reduction of refusing the vaccine (kinda a cop out, as refusing the vaccine is always a bad idea given the known risks of COVID -- but you see my point).

I see your point, but I was very clear about "if you look with respect to you", e.g. if you lived alone in a cabin the woods without any societal context.

Parsec wrote:

I see your point, but I was very clear about "if you look with respect to you", e.g. if you lived alone in a cabin the woods without any societal context.

Sure yeah, in a vacuum nearly everything has some risk to life and limb. It's not a good framework for decision-making.

It's a little inconsistent if they aren't mitigating more serious risks, but I think you're missing the "unknown unknown" aspect. Most of the risks for other things are rather well defined, you sort of know what the range of probable outcomes are.

We *don't* know what the vaccine could do. I think it's a low probability (absurdly low in fact) of long term side effects, but for all we know the probability could be high. I can understand someone accepting small known risks in their lives, but hedging against unknowns, because fear of the unknown is a pretty powerful in-built thing for people.

(As a side note, I kind of reject the airplane/car comparison because while the stats suggest airplanes are absurdly more safe than cars this looks at all drivers, and the average level of driving is absurdly low even before you factor in crazy teenagers and college bros cruising around drunk. For a competent driver who gives proper focus on the road, getting into an accident is incredibly difficult, outside of a small set of edge cases)

Sure, in theory the COVID vaccine could kill everyone who took after 10 years to the day.

In theory this could happen with the COVID virus too.

It's pretty easy to argue the risk ratio for virus:vaccine tilts STRONGLY in favor of the vaccine -- and we also have a lot of unknowns about the long term effects of COVID.

For flying vs driving.. there have been <50 deaths for US-based commercial airliners in the last 10 years. Even if you weight by time vs miles traveled the odds of getting T-boned by a drunk driver randomly are higher. The small edge cases add up to more risk that flying as an American.

Now, if you go hire Australian amateur bush pilots to fly around in a cloud bank -- sure that's different.