What is the minimum 1600m time to run a 9:59 3200m?

DistanceRunner68 wrote:

Agreed. I did It as a frosh. Ran 4:48/9:56.

That being said, I ran 4:45 enroute to a 9:56 that year, so my unofficial 1600 pr that year was technically 4:45. I consider myself an aerobic guy tho, so take it as you will

You're posting nonsense. If you ran a PR for the first half of a 2-mile, you would have been lucky to run the 2nd half in 5:30.

Everyone's truly representative PRs result in similar ratios. If they are graphed, the guys with better middle distance speed will have a steeper slope.

In my section, there were two runners that were very strong with mediocre 400 speed that won section XC titles. One of them ran PRs of 4:13/8:55, a week apart. The other ran 4:19/9:08 early in the season and without racing another mile, improved to 9:05 at the end.

These guys were as strong as it gets and managed about 15 seconds. No one is going to run 10:00 with a true PR of around 4:50.

You are the most stubborn poster on Letsrun. High school examples have been provided, college examples have been provided, pro examples have been provided, and real life experiences have been provided. Let's go back to the 7:24 run a few days ago. Your silly logic says that his minimum 1500 has to be around 3:27 indoor. The world record is only 3:31. Do you not see that you are being foolish? Even if he is capable of running 3:32, that is only a 10 second gap but I doubt that he could go that fast.

Iowa knows all wrote:

You are the most stubborn poster on Letsrun. High school examples have been provided, college examples have been provided, pro examples have been provided, and real life experiences have been provided. Let's go back to the 7:24 run a few days ago. Your silly logic says that his minimum 1500 has to be around 3:27 indoor. The world record is only 3:31. Do you not see that you are being foolish? Even if he is capable of running 3:32, that is only a 10 second gap but I doubt that he could go that fast.

Almost all of the posters listed PRs that indicated a 15 second decrease in pace at best. Other people can list times based on a soft mile PR or just make something up. One guy claimed he ran 10:05 with a 4:56 PR. I ran with, and against, the same runners for 4 years and all of them topped off at 15 seconds. There was no one that got anywhere close to 10 seconds.

I posted this before and there is not a single 4:05 runner, or faster, in HS history that managed better then 15 seconds. That's a large population of runners, so you would think there would be some 10 second guys.

Because if the shorter distances of1500/3000 meters, they needed to be converted to mile/2-mile for comparison purposes which adds about 2 seconds to the differential. Komen focused on 3000/2-mile/5000, so we don't whether his 1500/mile PRs were reflective of his ability, but in any case, it ridiculous to use him as a comp for HS kids.

What were your HS mile/2-mile PRs? The 13:45 guy scoffed at my opinions but never provided his.

I was a sprinter in high school. I have coached high school for a long time and have had many kids who had only a 10 second differential. Some of the same kids barely dropped any time from 3200 to their 5k cross country performances. One of my kids is running at a high level in the NCAA and has run twice in the NCAA XC meet. His high school PRs were 4:19 and 8:59. He has run sub 29 in the 10k. His college PR in the mile is 4:12 and he has run 8 flat for 3k.

Iowa knows all wrote:

I was a sprinter in high school. I have coached high school for a long time and have had many kids who had only a 10 second differential. Some of the same kids barely dropped any time from 3200 to their 5k cross country performances. One of my kids is running at a high level in the NCAA and has run twice in the NCAA XC meet. His high school PRs were 4:19 and 8:59. He has run sub 29 in the 10k. His college PR in the mile is 4:12 and he has run 8 flat for 3k.

People keeps providing anecdotal examples of 10 seconds, but why aren't there there some for elite HS runners with documented PRs. Strength runners like German Fernandez, Virgin, Hulst and Lindgren did not come anywhere close to 10 seconds. How do explain how not a single 4:05 guy in HS history has done better than 15 seconds?

Although HS elite runner times are well documented, a bunch of anecdotal examples prove that I'm wrong?

Minimum requirements:

3:48.0 - 8:00

3:57.8 - 8:20

4:07.6 - 8:40

4:17.3 - 9:00

4:27.0 - 9:20

4:36.8 - 9:40

4:46.5 - 10:00

4:56.2 - 10:20

5:06.0 - 10:40

Nico Young.

DistanceRunner68 wrote:

Agreed. I did It as a frosh. Ran 4:48/9:56.

That being said, I ran 4:45 enroute to a 9:56 that year, so my unofficial 1600 pr that year was technically 4:45. I consider myself an aerobic guy tho, so take it as you will

Congrats, you were probably in 4:37/9:50 shape, give or take

Iowa knows all wrote:

Nico Young.

Nico Young is a stud that might have run 4:00 had there been a 2020 season. As I commented in another post, he outkicked a 4:02 guy in his 8:40 win at Arcadia.

Iowa knows all wrote:

Nico Young.

4:07 1600 and a 8:40 3200 is 13s. A bit better than 15s but not quite 10s. AFAIK we don't have a mile time within 3 months of his 7:57/13:50. I went to school with a 4:38/9:35 kid who ran the mile on a regular basis and another who ran 4:58./10:04 but the second kid basically never ran the mile outside of a relay meet. He was absurdly slow though:)

15s is sort of the reasonable goal. Some people will be a bit faster but not by a ton. If we have a sample size of 10k runners, you will find some of the 10s outliers. But the odds of them also being 4:05 milers is pretty low. It might be a long time till everything lines up. Rupp might have been close (4:02 HS mile) if he ran a fast 3200 instead of that 5k (13:38 is much better than his 3k record). But he didn't.

Iowa knows all wrote:

I was a sprinter in high school. I have coached high school for a long time and have had many kids who had only a 10 second differential. Some of the same kids barely dropped any time from 3200 to their 5k cross country performances. One of my kids is running at a high level in the NCAA and has run twice in the NCAA XC meet. His high school PRs were 4:19 and 8:59. He has run sub 29 in the 10k. His college PR in the mile is 4:12 and he has run 8 flat for 3k.

You list 4:19 and 8:59 for a HS runner you coached, which would be 10 seconds slower for the mile (4:30) and doubled. Seems like you are proving SDSU to be correct, but perhaps I misunderstand your argument.

Rudy Chapa and Keogh and Pinkowski supposedly targeted 4:18 for the first mile of their 2-miles, so they could get used to the pace.

Ron Craker ran around 4:10 for a mile (could have run faster).

Craig Virgin ran a 4:04.1 converted the year he broke the 2-mile national record, but ran closer to 4:07 when doing the double in the state meet.

Don Sage at 4:00+ for 1600 and 8:42+ for 3200.

Dave Merrick ran 4:07.4 and 8:46.7

Tom Graves was a bit slow in the mile to get his name in the top 20 list below (4:08+), but his 8:49.7 conversion from 2-miles is exemplary.

3200-Meter Run

[1.] 8:38.7*, Craig Virgin, Lebanon, 1973

[2.] 8:42.89, Donald Sage, Elmhurst (York), 2000

[3.] 8:46.7*, Dave Merrick, New Lenox (Lincoln-Way), 1971

[4.] 8:49.6*, Ron Craker, Elmhurst (York), 1976

[5.] 8:49.7*, Tom Graves, Orland Park (Sandburg), 1977

[6.] 8:52.1, Mike Patton, Chicago (St. Ignatius), 1981

[7.] 8:52.33, Evan Jager, Algonquin (Jacobs), 2007

[8.] 8:54.6*, Rich Elliott, Hillside (Proviso West), 1968

[9.] 8:54.64, Chris Derrick, Naperville (Neuqua Valley), 2007

[10.] 8:54.79, Steve Miller, Elk Grove Village (E.G.), 1985

[11.] 8:55.4, Eric MacTaggert, Glen Ellyn (Glenbard South), 2004

[12.] 8:56.1, Jim Westphal, Oak Park (O.P.-River Forest), 1987

[13.] 8:56.2, Len Stiko, Niles (Notre Dame), 1987

[14.] 8:56.24, Tim Keller, West Chicago (H.S.), 2000

[15.] 8:56.6, Matt Nolan, Naperville (Central), 1980

[16.] 8:57.27, Da n Chenoweth, Geneseo, 2007

[17.] 8:57.5, Marius Baaken, Elmhurst (York), 1996

[18.] 8:57.61, Jack Keelan, Chicago (St. Ignatius), 2013

[18.] 8:57.61, Jack Keelan, Chicago (St. Ignatius), 2013 (state meet)

[20.] 8:57.7, Ralph Caron, Chicago (Marist), 1980

1600-Meter Run

[1.] 3:58.9, Donald Sage, Elmhurst (York), 2000

[2.] 4:02.4*, Tom Sullivan, Evanston (St. George), 1961

[3.] 4:03.84, Peter Callahan, Winnetka (North Shore Country Day), 2009

[4.] 4:04.1, Craig Virgin, Lebanon, 1973

[5.] 4:05.17, Jeff Thode, Hoffman Estates (Conant), 2009 (state finals)

[6.] 4:05.7, Andy Isla-Rubert, Hillside (Proviso West), 1970

[7.] 4:06.2*, Jim Spivey, Bensenville (Fenton), 1978

[8.] 4:06.4, Ron Wartgow, Belvidere, 1976

[9.] 4:06.6, Bill Fritz, Glen Ellyn (Glenbard West), 1974

[10.] 4:06.7, Mike Durkin, River Grove (Holy Cross), 1970

[10.] 4:06.7, Todd McAllister, Deerfield, 1978

[12.] 4:06.9, Mike Durkin, River Grove (Holy Cross), 1971

[13.] 4:07.0, Bob Hicks, Orland Park (Sandburg), 1977

[14.] 4:07.1, Bruce Bowman, Hillside (Proviso West), 1965

[15.] 4:07.2, Bob Hicks, Orland Park (Sandburg), 1977

[16.] 4:07.3, Jim White, Elmhurst (York), 1985

[17.] 4:07.4, Dave Merrick, New Lenox (Lincoln-Way), 1971

[18.] 4:07.45, Mark Deady, Lincolnshire (Stevenson), 1985

[19.] 4:07.5, Bob Hicks, Orland Park (Sandburg), 1977

[20.] 4:07.6, Ken Popejoy, Glen Ellyn (Glenbard West), 1969

A couple of years ago I coached at a school and we had a kid go 4:56 for 1600m and 9:57 for 3200m. No joke. He ran the 1600m 3 times that season and 4:56 was his best. In the aftermath, I'd assume he could've run faster than that, but he never did.

Roll EAGLES wrote:

A couple of years ago I coached at a school and we had a kid go 4:56 for 1600m and 9:57 for 3200m. No joke. He ran the 1600m 3 times that season and 4:56 was his best. In the aftermath, I'd assume he could've run faster than that, but he never did.

What you're claiming is not physically possible for any human being. Your kid did not run back to back mile PRs. I was very much a slow-twitch guy and was 4:53/10:18 as a sophomore. In my last race of the year, I ran against superior runners, went out in 4:58 and ended up running in the high 10:20s.

I'm curious what the logic would have been for the Hammond guys going out in 4:18. None of them ever broke 8:50 though Chapa was capable of it. Pinkowski's PR was 8:56 which would have been 4:18/4:38 and a painful way to run 8:56.

4:45 sounds about like the minimum

Wale ran 7:24 last week and 3:35 today. That is a 7 second difference. So I woukd say that the minimum 1600 to break 10 minutes would be about 4:52.