El Guerrouj 2k WR - Incredible 3:49 Mile pace

So how does the body "run out of oxygen" it never happened to me in any race.

And how does having more red blood cells obviate the need to suck oxygen from the atmosphere?

How do you carry more oxygen without breathing more oxygen?

Your explanations don't make any sense.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Since you always twist what is being said to suit your fatuous arguments, I did not claim that WADA specifically said El G's performances (or anyone else's, for that matter) were doped. They never make claims about individual athletes except as findings from tests.

But they and other antidoping experts consider EPO to be a powerful performance enhancing drug - not that it only has the "potential" to be so. Only a religiously fanatical doping denier like yourself refuses to see it. Every thread has its flat earther and that is the role you always play when the subject of doping arises. Your failure to grasp the topography of the issue is your outstanding feature.

You said, rather ambiguously, "WADA and other antidoping experts say that."

Perhaps the best way to untwist what is being said, is for you to provide real quotes rather than paraphrasing in your own words. I can find "potential to enhance" on WADA's website. Can you find "EPO is a powerful performance enhancing drug" specifically applicable to the sub-4:50 2000m runner, the same way you specifically applied it to El G for his 2000m performance? I can find many anti-doping experts disclaiming their doping performance findings on amateurs with respect to elite performances.

The bottom line, when you say "WADA says", or "anti-doping experts say", but fail to provide a quote, it is not "WADA" saying it, nor "anti-doping experts", but rather "Armstronglivs".

And whether it is "Armstronglivs", or "WADA", or "anti-doping experts", you, and they, lack two key pieces of information with respect to El G's 2000m world record performance.

Not on the planet you come from, which knows nothing about human physiology. Perhaps if you got off your a*se and did some reading about it you would stop parading your ignorance - the one thing you do well. As a previous poster said - you really shouldn't be here.

Only someone who is wilfully ignorant of doping relies upon the narrow criterion specified under the WADA code for including a drug on its banned list as a measure of its actual effect. Doping would be nothing more than a "potential" aid to performance if that were the case - hardly the game-changer and problem it is officially recognized as - but that is what you believe. Comments and speeches by WADA officials like Dick Pound and David Howman and researchers like Anne Shirley show how seriously they see any form of sports doping - of which EPO has become the most widely used in endurance sports. There is ample evidence out there from official sources and antidoping experts, and even athletes, that indicate the way drugs such as EPO can transform performances. It isn't "faith" that they know this, any more than that they know that putting petrol in their car makes it run. But debating any of this with you is as pointless an activity as trying to suggest to a Jehovah's Witness that the world wasn't made in 7 days. You will adhere to your reassuring fictions regardless of what anyone presents to the contrary. I will not bother.

These are all your words. You are the one telling us that breathing at the end of the race is an indication of the power of EPO. Now you are cowardly avoiding ownership of your own words, suggesting that Dick Pound, or David Howman, or Anne Shirley or official sources or anti-doping experts or athletes share your understanding about El Guerrouj's performance and what his breathing indicates -- without providing any sources.

I don't want to debate with you about your words -- that would be pointless.

Armstronglivs wrote:

how does that work? wrote:

So how does the body "run out of oxygen" it never happened to me in any race.

And how does having more red blood cells obviate the need to suck oxygen from the atmosphere?

How do you carry more oxygen without breathing more oxygen?

Your explanations don't make any sense.

Not on the planet you come from, which knows nothing about human physiology. Perhaps if you got off your a*se and did some reading about it you would stop parading your ignorance - the one thing you do well. As a previous poster said - you really shouldn't be here.

On the planet I come from oxygen makes up 20.9% of the atmosphere. Which Science should I be reading to understand how he could be using more oxygen, but breathing less?

You are thick as well as dishonest. EPO and blood doping requires less breathing during the race - not just at the end - because the higher red blood cell content transports more oxygen to the muscle tissues for each breath. The aerobic limits of the athlete are thereby extended by the use of the drug. You are unbelievably ignorant for one who is so obsessed with doping - or denying it.

I (and many others) am claiming El G benefited from EPO use; the antidoping experts above concur in the effect of the drugs, including EPO, on athlete performance. I never said they commented specifically on El G. They wouldn't have. But it is your habit to claim top performances will not have benefited from these drugs, despite the continuing widespread and previously uncontrolled nature of their use. You really should be telling us how the Red Sea parted and how they found Noah's ark. It would be just as informative. You are truly an apostle for the Church of Doping Doesn't Really Help Distance Runners. Judging by the incidence of doping your church has more sceptics than believers. Clearly, athletes are way smarter than you are.

how does that work? wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

Not on the planet you come from, which knows nothing about human physiology. Perhaps if you got off your a*se and did some reading about it you would stop parading your ignorance - the one thing you do well. As a previous poster said - you really shouldn't be here.

On the planet I come from oxygen makes up 20.9% of the atmosphere. Which Science should I be reading to understand how he could be using more oxygen, but breathing less?

The science that says a higher red blood cell content carries more oxygen to the muscles, hence fewer breaths are needed for given effort than if there is a lower red blood cell content (as in a less fit or undoped person) or if the cells have used up their oxygen. It appears your brain is starved of oxygen. Moron.

Armstronglivs wrote:

how does that work? wrote:

On the planet I come from oxygen makes up 20.9% of the atmosphere. Which Science should I be reading to understand how he could be using more oxygen, but breathing less?

The science that says a higher red blood cell content carries more oxygen to the muscles, hence fewer breaths are needed for given effort than if there is a lower red blood cell content (as in a less fit or undoped person) or if the cells have used up their oxygen. It appears your brain is starved of oxygen. Moron.

But how does the extra oxygen get into the blood from the atmosphere without breathing more?

How does he carry more oxygen without breathing more oxygen?

Ooh -- personal attacks -- a great start to the New Year.

Your claim, and the same claim of many others, is wholly uninformed.

Recall in a letsrun survey, it is true that 57% believed El G was dirty, but also that 43% did not.

In other words, many others do make that claim, and many others do not make that claim. It is not that far from 50/50.

Since you consistently fail to provide any supporting substance, every statement you make just raises the question when we undo your unsupported assumption.

Did El G breath less during and after the race?

Did El G have a higher red blood cell count?

Was El G's aerobic limit extended by the use of the drug?

Did he take the drug? Assuming his red blood cell count was raised, was it raised by a drug, or legal means?

Can EPO help elite athletes achieve a performance superior than by legal means? WADA and anti-doping experts don't say that either.

If EPO is powerful and widespread and benefits all elite athletes, where are all the other smart elite athletes within 1 second per lap of El G's powerful performance? Surely we should see a repeatable and repeated pattern of success under these assumptions.

Why deny you said something, because it is really WADA who says it, and then deny that WADA said it?

It is not possible to have an informed discussion without information.

I just want to know how EPO makes a runner use more oxygen but breathe less.

"Did you see that? He was hardly breathing! It's obvious he's doped to the gills on EPO!"

So how does that work?

Armstronglivs isn't making any sense. Can someone else explain it?

how does that work? wrote:

I just want to know how EPO makes a runner use more oxygen but breathe less.

"Did you see that? He was hardly breathing! It's obvious he's doped to the gills on EPO!"

So how does that work?

Armstronglivs isn't making any sense. Can someone else explain it?

I'm sorry to hear you are on life support.

It's sad when the brain is starved of oxygen.

Stop quoting all the responses every time. You don't need to quote any. They are already on the page. But if you do, just quote what you are responding to. This is why you take up page after page with the needless back and forth on every thread you comment on.

Never a true word. Come back when you have.

how does that work? wrote:

I just want to know how EPO makes a runner use more oxygen but breathe less.

"Did you see that? He was hardly breathing! It's obvious he's doped to the gills on EPO!"

So how does that work?

Armstronglivs isn't making any sense. Can someone else explain it?

I'm not all that familiar with the science of breathing, but I thought ventilatory rate had more to do with exhaling CO2 than inhaling O2.

I know there is a great deal of science around EPOC that looks into post exercise breathing. Armstronglivs likes to put himself in the same camp as researchers (although they say different things) -- maybe he has some research that links excess red blood cells to EPOC.

zcxvcxzv wrote:

Stop quoting all the responses every time. You don't need to quote any. They are already on the page. But if you do, just quote what you are responding to. This is why you take up page after page with the needless back and forth on every thread you comment on.

I like to quote what I'm responding to for context, deleting the rest of the history, but I agree that there is no need to have quotes nested 10 deep just taking up screen real estate.

Armstronglivs wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

It is not possible to have an informed discussion without information.

Never a true word. Come back when you have.

It was you who started the discussion by concluding breathing indicating the power of EPO. I have not yet joined that discussion, but simply point out that, so far, it is based on wholly uninformed assumptions lacking at least two necessary pre-requisites.

I always come back to provide information. In the last page and a half, I have provided specific details about the top 12 performers in the 2000m over the last 45 years, a quote from WADA's website about one criterion considered for inclusion in the banned list, and the result of a poll among the running fans of letsrun who believed El G was dirty. These are not my opinions or conclusions, but raw data from external sources which your opinions must not contradict.

You say you share the opinions of many athletes and experts, but when your bluff is called, you quickly backpedal and concede that they never expressed the opinion you shared. To mask your failure, you try to make it look like it is my fault that you cannot explain your opinions with any specific external support.

Armstronglivs wrote:

how does that work? wrote:

I just want to know how EPO makes a runner use more oxygen but breathe less.

"Did you see that? He was hardly breathing! It's obvious he's doped to the gills on EPO!"

So how does that work?

Armstronglivs isn't making any sense. Can someone else explain it?

I'm sorry to hear you are on life support.

It's nothing Doc, just a scratch.