El Guerrouj 2k WR - Incredible 3:49 Mile pace

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Armstronglivs wrote:

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how does that work? wrote:

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Armstronglivs wrote:

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GBohannon wrote:

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how does that work? wrote:

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Armstronglivs wrote:

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how does that work? wrote:

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Armstronglivs wrote:

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wegvewg wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsr0mZiRbNw

3:49.60 at 1600m as per the broadcast.

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Those last two laps - unbelievable- and scarcely breathing at the finish. Jeezus, EPO is a powerful drug!

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But isn't EPO supposed to make you breathe more?

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Less. You have more oxygen in your bloodstream.

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Which has to be extracted from the air by breathing more, not less.

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If you can’t understand the point that was being made, you probably shouldn’t be on these boards.

Let me clarify - due to (alleged) EPO use, El G still seemed fresh at the conclusion of the race. He was not gasping for air as one might expect (perhaps) because his blood already had all of the oxygen it needed.

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Yes (to both points).

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Really? Explain how that works? Don't just keep repeating the same line. Try answering the question.

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"EPO is a naturally occurring hormone in the body that stimulates the bone marrow to produce more red cells. Medically, it is given to patients with anemia of chronic disease whose bone marrow is suppressed to help them have more energy and increase daily function. But, inject it into an elite athlete and the extra oxygen increases their aerobic capacity. If the cell factory runs out of oxygen, it turns to anaerobic metabolism, whose waste products shut down the ability to perform. "

When you start running out of oxygen (which is carried to the muscles on the red blood cells) you quite literally run out of breath. That is when you see runners gasping and they may even collapse from lack of oxygen.

But if you increase your red blood cell content (which altitude training also does) you enable more oxygen to be carried to your muscles. Hence you can last longer with less effort. It doesn't involve breathing more because with each breath the increased red blood cells will carry more oxygen to the muscles. Everything becomes easier. That is why doped athletes can appear as fresh as a daisy at the end of a race.

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Armstronglivs wrote:
Since you always twist what is being said to suit your fatuous arguments, I did not claim that WADA specifically said El G's performances (or anyone else's, for that matter) were doped. They never make claims about individual athletes except as findings from tests.

But they and other antidoping experts consider EPO to be a powerful performance enhancing drug - not that it only has the "potential" to be so. Only a religiously fanatical doping denier like yourself refuses to see it. Every thread has its flat earther and that is the role you always play when the subject of doping arises. Your failure to grasp the topography of the issue is your outstanding feature.

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how does that work? wrote:

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Armstronglivs wrote:

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how does that work? wrote:

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Armstronglivs wrote:

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GBohannon wrote:

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how does that work? wrote:

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Armstronglivs wrote:

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how does that work? wrote:

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Armstronglivs wrote:

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wegvewg wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsr0mZiRbNw

3:49.60 at 1600m as per the broadcast.

---

Those last two laps - unbelievable- and scarcely breathing at the finish. Jeezus, EPO is a powerful drug!

---

But isn't EPO supposed to make you breathe more?

---

Less. You have more oxygen in your bloodstream.

---

Which has to be extracted from the air by breathing more, not less.

---

If you can’t understand the point that was being made, you probably shouldn’t be on these boards.

Let me clarify - due to (alleged) EPO use, El G still seemed fresh at the conclusion of the race. He was not gasping for air as one might expect (perhaps) because his blood already had all of the oxygen it needed.

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Yes (to both points).

---

Really? Explain how that works? Don't just keep repeating the same line. Try answering the question.

---

"EPO is a naturally occurring hormone in the body that stimulates the bone marrow to produce more red cells. Medically, it is given to patients with anemia of chronic disease whose bone marrow is suppressed to help them have more energy and increase daily function. But, inject it into an elite athlete and the extra oxygen increases their aerobic capacity. If the cell factory runs out of oxygen, it turns to anaerobic metabolism, whose waste products shut down the ability to perform. "

When you start running out of oxygen (which is carried to the muscles on the red blood cells) you quite literally run out of breath. That is when you see runners gasping and they may even collapse from lack of oxygen.

But if you increase your red blood cell content (which altitude training also does) you enable more oxygen to be carried to your muscles. Hence you can last longer with less effort. It doesn't involve breathing more because with each breath the increased red blood cells will carry more oxygen to the muscles. Everything becomes easier. That is why doped athletes can appear as fresh as a daisy at the end of a race.

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So how does the body "run out of oxygen" it never happened to me in any race.

And how does having more red blood cells obviate the need to suck oxygen from the atmosphere?

How do you carry more oxygen without breathing more oxygen?

Your explanations don't make any sense.

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rekrunner wrote:

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Armstronglivs wrote:
Since you always twist what is being said to suit your fatuous arguments, I did not claim that WADA specifically said El G's performances (or anyone else's, for that matter) were doped. They never make claims about individual athletes except as findings from tests.

But they and other antidoping experts consider EPO to be a powerful performance enhancing drug - not that it only has the "potential" to be so. Only a religiously fanatical doping denier like yourself refuses to see it. Every thread has its flat earther and that is the role you always play when the subject of doping arises. Your failure to grasp the topography of the issue is your outstanding feature.

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You said, rather ambiguously, "WADA and other antidoping experts say that."

Perhaps the best way to untwist what is being said, is for you to provide real quotes rather than paraphrasing in your own words. I can find "potential to enhance" on WADA's website. Can you find "EPO is a powerful performance enhancing drug" specifically applicable to the sub-4:50 2000m runner, the same way you specifically applied it to El G for his 2000m performance? I can find many anti-doping experts disclaiming their doping performance findings on amateurs with respect to elite performances.

The bottom line, when you say "WADA says", or "anti-doping experts say", but fail to provide a quote, it is not "WADA" saying it, nor "anti-doping experts", but rather "Armstronglivs".

And whether it is "Armstronglivs", or "WADA", or "anti-doping experts", you, and they, lack two key pieces of information with respect to El G's 2000m world record performance.

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Armstronglivs wrote:
Only someone who is wilfully ignorant of doping relies upon the narrow criterion specified under the WADA code for including a drug on its banned list as a measure of its actual effect. Doping would be nothing more than a "potential" aid to performance if that were the case - hardly the game-changer and problem it is officially recognized as - but that is what you believe. Comments and speeches by WADA officials like Dick Pound and David Howman and researchers like Anne Shirley show how seriously they see any form of sports doping - of which EPO has become the most widely used in endurance sports. There is ample evidence out there from official sources and antidoping experts, and even athletes, that indicate the way drugs such as EPO can transform performances. It isn't "faith" that they know this, any more than that they know that putting petrol in their car makes it run. But debating any of this with you is as pointless an activity as trying to suggest to a Jehovah's Witness that the world wasn't made in 7 days. You will adhere to your reassuring fictions regardless of what anyone presents to the contrary. I will not bother.

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Armstronglivs wrote:

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how does that work? wrote:

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Armstronglivs wrote:

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how does that work? wrote:

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Armstronglivs wrote:

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GBohannon wrote:

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how does that work? wrote:

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Armstronglivs wrote:

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how does that work? wrote:

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Armstronglivs wrote:

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wegvewg wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsr0mZiRbNw

3:49.60 at 1600m as per the broadcast.

---

Those last two laps - unbelievable- and scarcely breathing at the finish. Jeezus, EPO is a powerful drug!

---

But isn't EPO supposed to make you breathe more?

---

Less. You have more oxygen in your bloodstream.

---

Which has to be extracted from the air by breathing more, not less.

---

If you can’t understand the point that was being made, you probably shouldn’t be on these boards.

Let me clarify - due to (alleged) EPO use, El G still seemed fresh at the conclusion of the race. He was not gasping for air as one might expect (perhaps) because his blood already had all of the oxygen it needed.

---

Yes (to both points).

---

Really? Explain how that works? Don't just keep repeating the same line. Try answering the question.

---

"EPO is a naturally occurring hormone in the body that stimulates the bone marrow to produce more red cells. Medically, it is given to patients with anemia of chronic disease whose bone marrow is suppressed to help them have more energy and increase daily function. But, inject it into an elite athlete and the extra oxygen increases their aerobic capacity. If the cell factory runs out of oxygen, it turns to anaerobic metabolism, whose waste products shut down the ability to perform. "

When you start running out of oxygen (which is carried to the muscles on the red blood cells) you quite literally run out of breath. That is when you see runners gasping and they may even collapse from lack of oxygen.

But if you increase your red blood cell content (which altitude training also does) you enable more oxygen to be carried to your muscles. Hence you can last longer with less effort. It doesn't involve breathing more because with each breath the increased red blood cells will carry more oxygen to the muscles. Everything becomes easier. That is why doped athletes can appear as fresh as a daisy at the end of a race.

---

So how does the body "run out of oxygen" it never happened to me in any race.

And how does having more red blood cells obviate the need to suck oxygen from the atmosphere?

How do you carry more oxygen without breathing more oxygen?

Your explanations don't make any sense.

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Not on the planet you come from, which knows nothing about human physiology. Perhaps if you got off your a*se and did some reading about it you would stop parading your ignorance - the one thing you do well. As a previous poster said - you really shouldn't be here.

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rekrunner wrote:

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Armstronglivs wrote:
Only someone who is wilfully ignorant of doping relies upon the narrow criterion specified under the WADA code for including a drug on its banned list as a measure of its actual effect. Doping would be nothing more than a "potential" aid to performance if that were the case - hardly the game-changer and problem it is officially recognized as - but that is what you believe. Comments and speeches by WADA officials like Dick Pound and David Howman and researchers like Anne Shirley show how seriously they see any form of sports doping - of which EPO has become the most widely used in endurance sports. There is ample evidence out there from official sources and antidoping experts, and even athletes, that indicate the way drugs such as EPO can transform performances. It isn't "faith" that they know this, any more than that they know that putting petrol in their car makes it run. But debating any of this with you is as pointless an activity as trying to suggest to a Jehovah's Witness that the world wasn't made in 7 days. You will adhere to your reassuring fictions regardless of what anyone presents to the contrary. I will not bother.

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These are all your words. You are the one telling us that breathing at the end of the race is an indication of the power of EPO. Now you are cowardly avoiding ownership of your own words, suggesting that Dick Pound, or David Howman, or Anne Shirley or official sources or anti-doping experts or athletes share your understanding about El Guerrouj's performance and what his breathing indicates -- without providing any sources.

I don't want to debate with you about your words -- that would be pointless.

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how does that work? wrote:

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Armstronglivs wrote:

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how does that work? wrote:

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Armstronglivs wrote:

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how does that work? wrote:

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Armstronglivs wrote:

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GBohannon wrote:

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how does that work? wrote:

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Armstronglivs wrote:

---

how does that work? wrote:

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Armstronglivs wrote:

---

wegvewg wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsr0mZiRbNw

3:49.60 at 1600m as per the broadcast.

---

Those last two laps - unbelievable- and scarcely breathing at the finish. Jeezus, EPO is a powerful drug!

---

But isn't EPO supposed to make you breathe more?

---

Less. You have more oxygen in your bloodstream.

---

Which has to be extracted from the air by breathing more, not less.

---

If you can’t understand the point that was being made, you probably shouldn’t be on these boards.

Let me clarify - due to (alleged) EPO use, El G still seemed fresh at the conclusion of the race. He was not gasping for air as one might expect (perhaps) because his blood already had all of the oxygen it needed.

---

Yes (to both points).

---

Really? Explain how that works? Don't just keep repeating the same line. Try answering the question.

---

"EPO is a naturally occurring hormone in the body that stimulates the bone marrow to produce more red cells. Medically, it is given to patients with anemia of chronic disease whose bone marrow is suppressed to help them have more energy and increase daily function. But, inject it into an elite athlete and the extra oxygen increases their aerobic capacity. If the cell factory runs out of oxygen, it turns to anaerobic metabolism, whose waste products shut down the ability to perform. "

When you start running out of oxygen (which is carried to the muscles on the red blood cells) you quite literally run out of breath. That is when you see runners gasping and they may even collapse from lack of oxygen.

But if you increase your red blood cell content (which altitude training also does) you enable more oxygen to be carried to your muscles. Hence you can last longer with less effort. It doesn't involve breathing more because with each breath the increased red blood cells will carry more oxygen to the muscles. Everything becomes easier. That is why doped athletes can appear as fresh as a daisy at the end of a race.

---

So how does the body "run out of oxygen" it never happened to me in any race.

And how does having more red blood cells obviate the need to suck oxygen from the atmosphere?

How do you carry more oxygen without breathing more oxygen?

Your explanations don't make any sense.

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Not on the planet you come from, which knows nothing about human physiology. Perhaps if you got off your a*se and did some reading about it you would stop parading your ignorance - the one thing you do well. As a previous poster said - you really shouldn't be here.

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On the planet I come from oxygen makes up 20.9% of the atmosphere. Which Science should I be reading to understand how he could be using more oxygen, but breathing less?

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Armstronglivs wrote:

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how does that work? wrote:

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Armstronglivs wrote:

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how does that work? wrote:

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Armstronglivs wrote:

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how does that work? wrote:

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Armstronglivs wrote:

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GBohannon wrote:

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how does that work? wrote:

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Armstronglivs wrote:

---

how does that work? wrote:

---

Armstronglivs wrote:

---

wegvewg wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsr0mZiRbNw

3:49.60 at 1600m as per the broadcast.

---

Those last two laps - unbelievable- and scarcely breathing at the finish. Jeezus, EPO is a powerful drug!

---

But isn't EPO supposed to make you breathe more?

---

Less. You have more oxygen in your bloodstream.

---

Which has to be extracted from the air by breathing more, not less.

---

If you can’t understand the point that was being made, you probably shouldn’t be on these boards.

Let me clarify - due to (alleged) EPO use, El G still seemed fresh at the conclusion of the race. He was not gasping for air as one might expect (perhaps) because his blood already had all of the oxygen it needed.

---

Yes (to both points).

---

Really? Explain how that works? Don't just keep repeating the same line. Try answering the question.

---

"EPO is a naturally occurring hormone in the body that stimulates the bone marrow to produce more red cells. Medically, it is given to patients with anemia of chronic disease whose bone marrow is suppressed to help them have more energy and increase daily function. But, inject it into an elite athlete and the extra oxygen increases their aerobic capacity. If the cell factory runs out of oxygen, it turns to anaerobic metabolism, whose waste products shut down the ability to perform. "

When you start running out of oxygen (which is carried to the muscles on the red blood cells) you quite literally run out of breath. That is when you see runners gasping and they may even collapse from lack of oxygen.

But if you increase your red blood cell content (which altitude training also does) you enable more oxygen to be carried to your muscles. Hence you can last longer with less effort. It doesn't involve breathing more because with each breath the increased red blood cells will carry more oxygen to the muscles. Everything becomes easier. That is why doped athletes can appear as fresh as a daisy at the end of a race.

---

So how does the body "run out of oxygen" it never happened to me in any race.

And how does having more red blood cells obviate the need to suck oxygen from the atmosphere?

How do you carry more oxygen without breathing more oxygen?

Your explanations don't make any sense.

---

Not on the planet you come from, which knows nothing about human physiology. Perhaps if you got off your a*se and did some reading about it you would stop parading your ignorance - the one thing you do well. As a previous poster said - you really shouldn't be here.

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On the planet I come from oxygen makes up 20.9% of the atmosphere. Which Science should I be reading to understand how he could be using more oxygen, but breathing less?

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The science that says a higher red blood cell content carries more oxygen to the muscles, hence fewer breaths are needed for given effort than if there is a lower red blood cell content (as in a less fit or undoped person) or if the cells have used up their oxygen. It appears your brain is starved of oxygen. Moron.

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Armstronglivs wrote:
You are thick as well as dishonest. EPO and blood doping requires less breathing during the race - not just at the end - because the higher red blood cell content transports more oxygen to the muscle tissues for each breath. The aerobic limits of the athlete are thereby extended by the use of the drug. You are unbelievably ignorant for one who is so obsessed with doping - or denying it.

I (and many others) am claiming El G benefited from EPO use; the antidoping experts above concur in the effect of the drugs, including EPO, on athlete performance. I never said they commented specifically on El G. They wouldn't have. But it is your habit to claim top performances will not have benefited from these drugs, despite the continuing widespread and previously uncontrolled nature of their use. You really should be telling us how the Red Sea parted and how they found Noah's ark. It would be just as informative. You are truly an apostle for the Church of Doping Doesn't Really Help Distance Runners. Judging by the incidence of doping your church has more sceptics than believers. Clearly, athletes are way smarter than you are.

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I just want to know how EPO makes a runner use more oxygen but breathe less.

"Did you see that? He was hardly breathing! It's obvious he's doped to the gills on EPO!"

So how does that work?

Armstronglivs isn't making any sense. Can someone else explain it?

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how does that work? wrote:
I just want to know how EPO makes a runner use more oxygen but breathe less.

"Did you see that? He was hardly breathing! It's obvious he's doped to the gills on EPO!"

So how does that work?

Armstronglivs isn't making any sense. Can someone else explain it?

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It's sad when the brain is starved of oxygen.

Stop quoting all the responses every time. You don't need to quote any. They are already on the page. But if you do, just quote what you are responding to. This is why you take up page after page with the needless back and forth on every thread you comment on.

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rekrunner wrote:

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Armstronglivs wrote:
You are thick as well as dishonest. EPO and blood doping requires less breathing during the race - not just at the end - because the higher red blood cell content transports more oxygen to the muscle tissues for each breath. The aerobic limits of the athlete are thereby extended by the use of the drug. You are unbelievably ignorant for one who is so obsessed with doping - or denying it.

I (and many others) am claiming El G benefited from EPO use; the antidoping experts above concur in the effect of the drugs, including EPO, on athlete performance. I never said they commented specifically on El G. They wouldn't have. But it is your habit to claim top performances will not have benefited from these drugs, despite the continuing widespread and previously uncontrolled nature of their use. You really should be telling us how the Red Sea parted and how they found Noah's ark. It would be just as informative. You are truly an apostle for the Church of Doping Doesn't Really Help Distance Runners. Judging by the incidence of doping your church has more sceptics than believers. Clearly, athletes are way smarter than you are.

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Ooh -- personal attacks -- a great start to the New Year.

Your claim, and the same claim of many others, is wholly uninformed.
Recall in a letsrun survey, it is true that 57% believed El G was dirty, but also that 43% did not.
In other words, many others do make that claim, and many others do not make that claim. It is not that far from 50/50.

Since you consistently fail to provide any supporting substance, every statement you make just raises the question when we undo your unsupported assumption.
Did El G breath less during and after the race?
Did El G have a higher red blood cell count?
Was El G's aerobic limit extended by the use of the drug?
Did he take the drug? Assuming his red blood cell count was raised, was it raised by a drug, or legal means?
Can EPO help elite athletes achieve a performance superior than by legal means? WADA and anti-doping experts don't say that either.
If EPO is powerful and widespread and benefits all elite athletes, where are all the other smart elite athletes within 1 second per lap of El G's powerful performance? Surely we should see a repeatable and repeated pattern of success under these assumptions.
Why deny you said something, because it is really WADA who says it, and then deny that WADA said it?

It is not possible to have an informed discussion without information.

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how does that work? wrote:
I just want to know how EPO makes a runner use more oxygen but breathe less.

"Did you see that? He was hardly breathing! It's obvious he's doped to the gills on EPO!"

So how does that work?

Armstronglivs isn't making any sense. Can someone else explain it?

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zcxvcxzv wrote:
Stop quoting all the responses every time. You don't need to quote any. They are already on the page. But if you do, just quote what you are responding to. This is why you take up page after page with the needless back and forth on every thread you comment on.

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Armstronglivs wrote:

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rekrunner wrote:
It is not possible to have an informed discussion without information.

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Never a true word. Come back when you have.

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Armstronglivs wrote:

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how does that work? wrote:
I just want to know how EPO makes a runner use more oxygen but breathe less.

"Did you see that? He was hardly breathing! It's obvious he's doped to the gills on EPO!"

So how does that work?

Armstronglivs isn't making any sense. Can someone else explain it?

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I'm sorry to hear you are on life support.

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