The Marathon Project was a HUGE success, but is Marty Hehir the equivalent of a 13:30 5000 runner?

Kipchoge is doing weekly long runs that are equivalent to 2:09 marathons when you factor in the altitude.

American “elite” marathoning is like getting excited about your favorite minor league baseball team. Yeah they’re cheap entertainment but you know their just not the big league,

We need to have a better approach to developing marathoners in this country. Whether it’s larger training groups focused on the event with international coaches. Ones that don’t use weird “designer workouts” and use kilometers rather than miles. As someone posted on another thread we need a 3 minute per kilometer mindset and not a 5 minute mile one.

Lets get this straight - 2:09 is brilliant time and is more than competitive amongst European heritage athletes and probably the Japanese too. Even if its 'worth' 2:11 that's still an incredible performance.

The issue isn't 2:09.

The issue is that you have 200 African and African heritage athletes who are over a mile down the road.

We need to find some way to level the playing field. We need to be creative. Elite sport isn't going to survive like this. You're gonna have 4 hour Instagram runners who make more money than 2:09 guys. You maybe already do.

Imagine a championships where you genuinely have athletes from 10 different countries in the lead pack at 20 miles. It would be amazing. The Commonwealth and European marathons (where the top East Africans aren't there) have been WAY more exciting than Olympics, for example.

If we continue to have competition where 2:09 is reported as an "also ran" then we surely can't be surprised when these elite runners get the same treatment as other "also rans" runners who are taking over 3 hours to complete.

Faster than you wrote:

I am more inclined to compare the performance to Americans than Africans. Americans on average are larger than East Africans which magnifies the difference in time at longer distances. I didn't check the 5k American times but his all time place in the marathon probably puts him about 13 flat in the 5k.

From an American only perspective , one could argue if it wasn’t for the shoes, 13 flat would be about right as nine Americans have broken 1300 and 11 have broken 209. But the shoes are worth at least 5 seconds per mile. And I’m comparingg it internationally where we do seem to suck relatively more at the marathon as you point out.

First of all, kudos to all the fast times in Chandler.

But let’s be honest, our top guys are scared to mix it up with the best.

Outside of Sara, Ward, Llano, Droddy and a few others, what Americans go to Tokyo or Berlin or Amsterdam or a host of other fast courses in Europe or Japan of Korea? Only doing the ‘Desi Double’ of Boston&NY will rarely result in fast times.

So what if you run a fast course and get your butt kicked yet run 2:08 and no money? Only four people got money in Chandler.

IAAF says: 2:08:58 = 13:08, 27:36

So....NO.

Sure, these guys work hard for their times, but I do not find them remotely 'inspiring'. Most sacrifice far more of their lives than I ever would to be about 10 mins faster than I was, and still zero chance of respect on the world stage. While it's possible that one or two might actually find another 5 minutes, I actually feel sorry for sub-elites like these 2:10 guys. Anyone excited by this is a 'little league' type.

YMMV wrote:

IAAF says: 2:08:58 = 13:08, 27:36

So....NO.

The IAAF scoring tables are not in any way omniscient. The truth is likely that the performance is worth about 13:20. But even if it is, as Rojo said, the shoes are a game changer, perhaps a bit like having a slight tailwind in terms of shaving a couple minutes off. Some people seem to be upset about this being discussed. I would just say that if people were discussing my 2:08 being aided by the mechanical “doping” of shoes, I would be flattered that they care to discuss it at all, and certainly not offended as I might be if they were discussing EPO or some other PED as aiding my effort.

Dr Yuengling wrote:

We can enjoy his performance and also have a discussion about where it stands on the world stage.

You mean the "world stage" where there is blatant doping? Hello?!?

rojo wrote:

But the shoes are worth at least 5 seconds per mile.

YOU don't know that.

Except if you compare it to Kenyan marathon times, it’s pretty slow.

Martin Hehir, born 1992.

1500 Metres 3:47.19 Palo Alto, CA (USA) 04 MAY 2014 1012

3000 Metres 8:25.64 Philadelphia, PA (USA) 29 APR 2011 911

5000 Metres 13:29.94 Los Angeles, CA (USA) 18 MAY 2017 1102

10,000 Metres 28:08.60 Palo Alto, CA (USA) 31 MAR 2017 1119

5 Kilometres 13:59 Phoenix, AZ (USA) 06 NOV 2016 1020

8 Kilometres 23:28 Kingsport, TN (USA) 13 JUL 2019 0

10 Kilometres 29:05 Ottawa (CAN) 27 MAY 2017 1043

15 Kilometres 43:21 Jacksonville, FL (USA) 10 MAR 2018 1111

10 Miles Road 46:49 Pittsburgh, PA (USA) 04 NOV 2018 1103

20 Kilometres 1:02:23 New Haven, CT (USA) 03 SEP 2018 955

Half Marathon 1:03:46 Monterey, CA (USA) 13 NOV 2016 1040

Marathon 2:08:59 Chandler, AZ (USA) 20 DEC 2020 1180

Ghost1 wrote:

Martin Hehir, born 1992.

1500 Metres 3:47.19 Palo Alto, CA (USA) 04 MAY 2014 1012

3000 Metres 8:25.64 Philadelphia, PA (USA) 29 APR 2011 911

5000 Metres 13:29.94 Los Angeles, CA (USA) 18 MAY 2017 1102

10,000 Metres 28:08.60 Palo Alto, CA (USA) 31 MAR 2017 1119

5 Kilometres 13:59 Phoenix, AZ (USA) 06 NOV 2016 1020

8 Kilometres 23:28 Kingsport, TN (USA) 13 JUL 2019 0

10 Kilometres 29:05 Ottawa (CAN) 27 MAY 2017 1043

15 Kilometres 43:21 Jacksonville, FL (USA) 10 MAR 2018 1111

10 Miles Road 46:49 Pittsburgh, PA (USA) 04 NOV 2018 1103

20 Kilometres 1:02:23 New Haven, CT (USA) 03 SEP 2018 955

Half Marathon 1:03:46 Monterey, CA (USA) 13 NOV 2016 1040

Marathon 2:08:59 Chandler, AZ (USA) 20 DEC 2020 1180

Martin Hehir, Indoor

One Mile 3:59.81 University Park, PA (USA) 31 JAN 2015 1132

3000 Metres 7:53.15 Blacksburg, VA (USA) 28 FEB 2015 1119

3000 Metres 7:49.52 * Ames, IA (USA) 10 FEB 2017

In Japan, a guy with a similar credentials as Hehir might become a 206 Marathon runner.Credit to Martin for running so well while juggling medical studies and family life with two kids that is not easy. In Japan the corporate runners have an advantage in that their whole life is geared towards excellence in elite distance running and all their needs are taken care of. It is also community based in that they always train in a group and there are many advantages to that as we can see from Kenya and Ethiopia.

USA and other western nations are anomalous in that sense in that many of their elite athletes train alone or with very small groups compared with the three big countries for distance running Kenya, Ethiopia and Japan.

No need to be an LRC apologist, friend. This place is toxic and always has been. They perpetuate the narrative for years that American men aren't good. American men run fast. Then they find new angles to try to tear them down. I think you need a dose of reality that most people are excited by the performances from this past weekend. This place has some pull/reach with middle aged white dudes. They can either get people hyped about the sport or keep working these pessimistic angles. If they think that's the right business model, fine. I'm getting tons of great coverage of the races from plenty of other sources that are going to continue to cut into their bottom line. They are on an island the way they are looking at these performances.

I think it's poor taste as a running authority to start with this kind of stuff so soon after all of these great times. It doesn't seem genuine. It doesn't give me the impression they care about the sport. They care about clicks. But they really just can't ever be happy. If Hehir ran 2:07, they'd be writing about how Hall ran 2:06.

That's my impression too.

rojo wrote:

iDiott wrote:

I think Martin has run 13:29.94 in 2017 so there is no doubt that he is a 13:30 guy. .

When I posted it, I had no idea what his track time was or had even thought about looking it up.

Wow. Just wow.

Ghost1 wrote:

In Japan, a guy with a similar credentials as Hehir might become a 206 Marathon runner.Credit to Martin for running so well while juggling medical studies and family life with two kids that is not easy. In Japan the corporate runners have an advantage in that their whole life is geared towards excellence in elite distance running and all their needs are taken care of. It is also community based in that they always train in a group and there are many advantages to that as we can see from Kenya and Ethiopia.

USA and other western nations are anomalous in that sense in that many of their elite athletes train alone or with very small groups compared with the three big countries for distance running Kenya, Ethiopia and Japan.

Hehir had pretty much that at NAZ Elite. He willingly went another direction, he had other goals besides running fast. And he's still really damn good!

Jeff Schiebler, Vancouver, B.C., Canada

1500 Metres 3:40.7h Montreal (CAN) 28 JUL 1998 1097

3000 Metres 7:43.42 Stade Olympique de la Pontaise, Lausanne (SUI) 25 AUG 1998 1155

5000 Metres 13:13.96 Olympiastadion, Berlin (GER) 01 SEP 1998 1159

10,000 Metres 27:36.01 Palo Alto, CA (USA) 04 MAY 2001 1169

3000 Metres Steeplechase 8:40.98 Port Coquitlam (CAN) 15 AUG 1992 1074

5 Kilometres 13:52 Carlsbad, CA (USA) 02 APR 1995 1044

10 Kilometres 28:55 Vancouver (CAN) 13 APR 2003 1057

10 Kilometres 28:36 * Atlanta, GA (USA) 04 JUL 1996 1054

10 Miles Road 45:52 Kosa (JPN) 08 DEC 1996 ABP 1155

Half Marathon 1:01:28 Tokyo (JPN) 15 JAN 1999 NR 1132

Half Marathon 1:01:18 * Tokyo (JPN) 19 JAN 1997 1130

Marathon 2:17:22 Chicago, IL (USA) 12 OCT 2003 1034

Marathon 2:14:13 * New York, NY (USA) 03 NOV 2002 1075