Question about cruise intervals from Jack Daniels

My understanding (and I used jd running formula ) many times to good result.

At the pace of“comfortably hard”

Is key for this. That pacexwhere your breathing becomes labored...your legs heavy and you could continue for (forgetvif it was 5km or 1/2 marathon pace check online for this).

Day to day runs

“Pleasantly tired”

Tempo cruise intervals

“Comfortable hard”

(Too fast is not good and too slow is also not good cause your body needs to learn to buffer lactate)

Vo 2max

“Very fast”

The keys to workout is short rest 1 minute s so blood lactate levels remain high and accumulation of lactate is steady

Very few people can keep pace at right level cause it causes a lot of discomfort...lactate buildup.

It’s easier to go much faster or slower.

Jack Daniels says use T pace whether it's 20 minutes continuous or broken into cruise intervals. McMillan has 4 paces that are close to T pace.

McMillan's Steady State pace is slower than Daniels T pace. McMillan's Cruise Interval pace is faster than Daniels T pace. McMillan's Tempo pace and Tempo Interval pace are around Daniels T pace, with Tempo Interval pace a little faster than Tempo pace in McMillan's world.

McMillan further distinguishes your recommended training paces based on if you are a Speedster, an Aerobic Monster, or what he calls Combo Runner, in other words, in between Speedster and Aerobic monster.

They’re intended to be at 20 minute tempo pace. I found that I naturally ran them faster, even though I didn’t intend to. Maybe 5-6 seconds per mile, so more like 15k pace than half marathon pace (which is almost exactly where my VDOT T pace was)

These 20 min Daniel's T runs shouldn't be called "tempo" runs, they are "threshold runs". Much faster than the usual tempo intensity, but also shorter. They are literally just one step slower than 10k pace for most people.

For example, for a typical 32 flat 10k LRC guy, his VDOT

10k pace = 5:09/mile

T pace = 5:22/mile

I'd think that most 32 flat guys would not run their tempos at 5:22/mile, but a bit slower. But they would probably run mile repeats at that pace, or a bit quicker.

The irony is that Daniel's wants these tempos to be smooth, controlled efforts but the paces from his calculators are just too fast for a standard tempo run. Maybe they work for 27-28 min runners (most of the athletes Jack coached were elites), but the slower you get the slower the tempo pace should be compared to what the VDOT calculator suggests, imo.

I don’t agree with Phil’s post at all. A 20 minute run at T pace is a pretty controlled effort in my opinion. If it isn’t you aren’t actually at the right VDOT. Cruise intervals totaling 6 miles also feels controlled. Once you get into the 7-9 mile of total volume range at T pace things start to get difficult.

Please note I am not very fast. VDOT 65-67.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

These 20 min Daniel's T runs shouldn't be called "tempo" runs, they are "threshold runs". Much faster than the usual tempo intensity, but also shorter. They are literally just one step slower than 10k pace for most people.

Wrong.

There are many definitions of "tempo", depending on the coach/athlete.

Daniels is careful to explain his, and that his definition corresponds to lactate threshold.

Just because LateRunnerPhil-know-it-all uses a different definition it doesn't mean we should listen to him.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

The irony is that Daniel's wants these tempos to be smooth, controlled efforts but the paces from his calculators are just too fast for a standard tempo run.

Wrong again.

The irony is that you think you know it all and you don't.

I can give you a bunch of examples where Daniels' T paces are just fine for the athletes I coach and for myself.

Maybe those paces are too fast for you but, despite your progression, you are no example for anyone with your training. And you have been called out far too often on these message boards to deserve any credibility.

Oh and, his name is Jack Daniels, not Jack Daniel.

Bump

If you need a lengthy explanation from the man himself:

https://www.runnersworld.com/advanced/a20807282/threshold-training/

I've found that I can usually run T-pace mile repeats with the correct effort at slightly faster than prescribed pace. But the 20-minute continuous runs are typically right on pace when run at the correct level of effort.

For T-pace miles, I would say they should feel relaxed and almost easy for the first 800m. Then around 1000-1400m, you will start to feel a little fatigue starting, so you will need to concentrate on staying focused and relaxed. Last 200-300m, you will typically be right on that edge of heavier breathing and harder effort, so it's important to keep it controlled and balance that feeling of being on the edge without going over. In other words, don't race the last 200m because it will look good in your log.

Yes they’re suppose to be at your same 20 minute tempo pace. The difference is instead of covering just 3-4 miles in the 20 minute tempo you’re able to cover a higher volume of 5-6 miles with the cruise intervals. So don’t be tempted to run faster. It’s about the volume.

I’m an avid Daniels guy and I’ll say that 20 minutes at T pace is really hard for me. But cruise intervals at T pace feel too tame and I usually end up running them faster.

That’s not a flaw in Daniels - it’s a reflection of my natural strengths and weaknesses as a runner. For whatever reason, I’ve always had trouble with sustained tempo efforts. I mean, my pace is right, me heart rates in the right range, and I can say a sentence if I’m asked a question, but it just hurts.

But I’ve also found that they are great for me as a runner, helping me adapt physiologically, but also mentally as I get accustomed for sustained periods of discomfort.

I find steady-state to be more effective than T pace but if you’re using Daniels I would recommend the cruise intervals as precursor workouts to the sustained efforts at T pace or as late season workouts just before the peak to stay sharp without digging a hole.

As I read it, the cruise/glide plus interval has the intention of generating enough lactate to get a response from the body but not overload the body with too many hydrogen ions/free radicals that can cause injury. The idea of cruise intervals is that you can run a lot of them probably even more than the standard 20-minute tempo run, which generates a lot of free radicals and too much for the aerobic system to mop up. As I recall the intention was that it would be easier to run glide intervals and maybe a slightly faster pace than 20 minute tempo... Which comes off more as a strength endurance run and often degrades into a slower pace and in no man's land. You get a similar physical result from the cruise intervals as you do a longer or harder workout- it was designed to fake a much harder workout but you need to nail your paces and not be the hero which is a different workout

Here is the table using a 5k and 10k as template. Depending on your fitness you do 45 or 1 min rest to clear out the hydrogen ions/free radicals but still keep lactate elevated . Remember lactic acid is an energy source and this helps your system regenerate ATP from pyruvate(so?) But the consequences are free radicals which must be scavenged by oxygen. The longer the tempo, the harder it is to clear all those.

Dammit, here is link:

http://www.k-b-c.com/daniels.htm

cocoablini wrote:

Depending on your fitness you do 45 or 1 min rest to clear out the hydrogen ions/free radicals but still keep lactate elevated .

Paper to this assumption?

Why do you don't think this depends on personal fitness level?