Ingebrigtsen LT pace

You are correct. But, if you know science or training philosophy/history, you know that the threshold is stimulated on a range of pace and not only one specific pace. Also, of course the rest and duration affects this.

Morning sessions of 5x6:00 or 6x5:00 or 25 min tempo are roughly around 85-87% of their 5k pace. (they of course are using lactate measuring but for our sake, this is rough estimate)

Afternoon sessions would differ depending on the workout.

25x400 with 30 seconds rest would be more like 97% of 5k pace

10x1000 closer to 92-95% (again, depends on the day)

Total of about an hour a day of "threshold" but across a wide range of paces.

Han Solo

And in terms of recovery, I am guessing that 1ks are about a minute recovery and the 6 min reps with a 2-minute recovery. Is that so? Thank you for the information

I'd suggest you read the article by Tjelta from 2019 ("Three Norwegian brothers all European 1500 m champions: What is the secret?").

He mentions at what HR they do their sessions. The interval threshold sessions is done at 82-92% of HRmax, or 2.5-3.5 mmol lactate.

They go faster at shorter intervals, and slightly slower on longer ones.

From the Ingebrigtsen documentary, they show a quick view of the training schedule from ~2012. In that schedule the 25x400 m has a resting period of 30 s.

Philip have mentioned that they've changed their training a lot, and the take home message is a lot of mileage.

They also do harder sessions, for example they do shorter repeats (400-300-200) where they go up to <10 mmol lactate.

Remember that they can train at threshold pace, which is close to their race pace.

Blixten

Thanks for the suggestion, very interesting how threshold pace can vary from 1hr race pace down to approx 5k pace. Seems like they're always ready to run fast at any time, there's really no periodization other than switching out the hills for faster stuff on the track. There's constant involvement of all systems throughout the year.

threshold pace :

this is a random question, but have you personally expiremented with doing double threshold days?

if so, how did it go?

coleiolio

I have not done double sessions but this summer I made my biggest improvement in the 3 mile by doing T and F single threshold runs. Tuesday was generally a 5 mile tempo at the 1hr threshold pace and on Friday I would do about 8 miles of MP / Tinman Tempo.

I went from a 16:30 3 mile to a 15:10 3 mile in one season (I'm a senior in HS). Threshold seemed to work for me a lot since I'm very slow twitch so I'm just interested in different threshold methods for hopefully the track season. If you would like to know more, feel free to ask.

Han Solo wrote:

"Morning sessions of 5x6:00 or 6x5:00 or 25 min tempo are roughly around 85-87% of their 5k pace. (they of course are using lactate measuring but for our sake, this is rough estimate)

Afternoon sessions would differ depending on the workout.

25x400 with 30 seconds rest would be more like 97% of 5k pace

10x1000 closer to 92-95% (again, depends on the day)"

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As far as I know they run 12x 1000m. Jakob and Phillip reportedly run 2:45 - 2:43 per km. - Henrik a bit slower. Some few years ago they ran around 2:55 per km. They run these reps at lactate number 3.1-3.2. So the reps are run aerobically.

2:44 per km equals 21.95 per hour.

If we guess that Jakob this year could have run at least 12:50 in the 5000m (that is what his 1500m and 3000m times indicate) this equals 2:34 per km and 23.38 per hour.

Jakob is therefore running 21.95 x 100/ 23.38= 93.88% of his 5000m pace.

So you are right ; Between 92 and 95% of the 5000m pace.

Phillip must be running closer to his 5000m pace since he hasn´t broken 13:10 yet.

I am planning on reducing the amount of MP pace work with more 5k-10k pace work with short rests to improve stamina for the shorter events like the 1600 and the 3200.

I follow a similar approach and it has worked well for me. Usually a tempo anywhere from 40-60 minutes at 5k + 60 seconds, and a threshold every other week or so. Also a senior. Did you find that at times your turnover suffered as a result? This base phase I plan on doing a 150-300 session weekly with long rest to keep the wheels on. I am wondering if a threshold, a slow tempo (incorporated during the LR), and a glorified stride session is too much in a week during base?

Filip not Phillip!

coleilio

I found my turnover actually improved even with the high amount of threshold running and mileage.

During the season I think an important factor for me was that I started doubling. On day of workouts, I would do a 2 mile jog very easy with some strides, and then I would do 4x6 second hills sprints (FULL REC so about 3 mins for) then progressed to about 10x6 hill sprints. I would alternate the hill sprints with flat sprints. These sprints in the morning actually made me feel better and made me ready to fun fast.

My schedule currently is

M - EASY miles with strides, sometimes double

T - AM: 2 jog, 4x6sec hill sprints. PM:LT workout at 1hr race pace. Last week I did 2x2 mile with about 3 rec in between.

W - EASY miles with strides, sometimes double

T - EASY miles with strides, sometimes double

F - AM: 2 jog, 4x6sec flat sprints. PM: 6x3min at about 10k pace, 1 min rec. 5 min break, 4x200s full rest just for turnover.

Sa - 90ish min long run easy, if I feel god I may go down to MP near the end

Su - Off

I average about 65miles a weeks, sorry for the long post.

Nah, no worries. Do you have strava?

obviously both filip and Jakob are capable of running sub 13 flat, and jakob even sub 12:50 based on his 3000m in 7:27. Biggest reason Filip has not run faster than 13:11 is that he hasnt done a 5000m in peak shape. When he ran his pr in Rome 2019 he was still tired from pollen allergies that spring and tied up alot the last 400m. During Doha world championships 5000m final and when running 10k that autumn in 28:40 he had problems with his breath which hindered him from running close to his potential. While its true that filip is more of a specialized 1500m guy than jakob, who is more of an allround runner, I think filip needs only two or three 5000meters races in top shape in order to break 13 (easier said than done). Probably after 2021 if he feels he cant improve in the 1500m he will move up to 3000/5000m races.

The 5*6min 60s break workout is often ran on treadmill and if you look at some of Jakobs IG vids he runs them at around 2:50 min/km. Jakob has said he run 10-12*1k 60s break at around 2:40 low and their 25*400m 30s rest they run around 60 flat, 2:30min/km which is closer to 3k pace for both filip and jakob (I timed a video of this workout posted on IG). Almost all of their workouts are run in zoomx carbon plate shoes it looks like so you have to factor that in when adjusting to your own pace.

Yes there you go. Just in keep in mind if you look at my training during the xc season half of it is not there since I'm horrible with uploading my runs or sometimes I just didn't want to wear my watch. I've been consistent since starting my base phase last month

The paces being talked about here (approaching 5K pace) are too fast to be considered "threshold" training. At best I would expect these "threshold reps" to be run at critical velocity and that is defined as 30-35 minute race pace. Faster than 60 minute race pace but not as taxing as 5K pace.

parkerjohn wrote:

The paces being talked about here (approaching 5K pace) are too fast to be considered "threshold" training. At best I would expect these "threshold reps" to be run at critical velocity and that is defined as 30-35 minute race pace. Faster than 60 minute race pace but not as taxing as 5K pace.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Do you even know who the Ingebrigtsens are?

parkerjohn wrote:

The paces being talked about here (approaching 5K pace) are too fast to be considered "threshold" training. At best I would expect these "threshold reps" to be run at critical velocity and that is defined as 30-35 minute race pace. Faster than 60 minute race pace but not as taxing as 5K pace.

This is incorrect. The Ingebrigtsen’s use lactate measuring devices to make sure the threshold reps are actually threshold.

yes, the ingebrigtsens don't care about "threshold pace" which can vary from day to day, they train at threshold intensity which they know the feeling of and also use lactate measuring device (lactate pro 2) in order to confirm that they are in the correct intensity zone (2.5 mmol for morning workouts and 3.5 mmol for afternoon workouts)

get a clue wrote:

parkerjohn wrote:

The paces being talked about here (approaching 5K pace) are too fast to be considered "threshold" training. At best I would expect these "threshold reps" to be run at critical velocity and that is defined as 30-35 minute race pace. Faster than 60 minute race pace but not as taxing as 5K pace.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Do you even know who the Ingebrigtsens are?

We are talking about 25x400 @3k pace with 30s rest. I am not sure I even believe that workout is possible much less doing it without building up 3.5mmol of Lactate. The studies I have seen of people doing 30/30s or 60/60s tend to get well above 4.0. Granted we aren't talking world class athletes. Back the pace off to like 10k (i.e. 64s for those 1000s is a bit fast for 10k pace but it is also a bit slower than 5k pace) and I totally believe the numbers.

My take away from the Ingebrigstens and a couple of others guys, is that a some people should be going for volume of slow quality aerobic training (10k->MP) because they respond very well. The double sessions are a nice twist to get get in even more work than you could get with solo sessions.