LeBron is the GREATEST OF ALL TIME

Bill Russell.

Celtics championships before his arrival? Zero.

Thirteen years. Eleven titles. One runner-up when he was injured. And one loss in the eastern finals.

First year after he left?

Losing record.

Not even close.

People talk about Red Auerbach and all those Hall of Fame team-mates.

Auerbach never won before Russ.

Let's look at some of those HOF teammates. Would they have been HOFers had they not played with Russ?

Cousy, Sharman, Heinsohn, Sam Jones, Havlicek -- HOFers period.

Frank Ramsay, , Andy Phillip, Bob Houbregs (who?), Clyde Lovelette,...no.

Satch Sanders, KC Jones, Ed McAuley....probably no.

Russ is GOAT hands down

MJ is great but overrated. Couldn't win without HOF help -- as shown by his many first round exits.

LeGOAT gets it done on any team.

Harambe wrote:

MJ is great but overrated. Couldn't win without HOF help -- as shown by his many first round exits.

LeGOAT gets it done on any team.

Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love.

Dwayne Wade.

Anthony Davis.

Not bad help

aztec the moron wrote:

I wish lebron would shut up. But he's definitely better than Jordan.

Lebron has won championships with truly crappy teams and crappy coaches. Jordan had the best teammates and best coach in the league.

Even this current Laker team is trash with the exception of Anthony Davis. Danny Green? Kentavious Caldwell-Pope? Who the hell is Alex Caruso? Caruso is playing 30+ minutes a game in the playoffs. Jordan wouldn't make it out of the first round of the playoffs with this group.

People really like to hate the lakers tho. They've been absolute garbage for the past few years

The Unkle wrote:

Bill Russell.

Celtics championships before his arrival? Zero.

Thirteen years. Eleven titles. One runner-up when he was injured. And one loss in the eastern finals.

First year after he left?

Losing record.

Not even close.

People talk about Red Auerbach and all those Hall of Fame team-mates.

Auerbach never won before Russ.

Let's look at some of those HOF teammates. Would they have been HOFers had they not played with Russ?

Cousy, Sharman, Heinsohn, Sam Jones, Havlicek -- HOFers period.

Frank Ramsay, , Andy Phillip, Bob Houbregs (who?), Clyde Lovelette,...no.

Satch Sanders, KC Jones, Ed McAuley....probably no.

Russ is GOAT hands down

Not arguing with Russell being in the conversation but the losing record after he left was not because he was so dominant in his last year. The Celtics didnt have a center to replace him and had to find a new coach as he was a player/coach his last few years. Nevertheless an old broken down Russell was still good enough to stop Chamberlain. Russell would be just as dominant in today's game.

If Lebron was even close to goat status the ratings for the finals wouldn’t have been dogsh!t

asdffjkfk wrote:

If Lebron was even close to goat status the ratings for the finals wouldn’t have been dogsh!t

Come on, even the NFL superbowl ratings have been declining over the last 5 years. Mahomes and Brady are great quarterbacks. Goat status has nothing to do with ratings.

Who cares if you make the finals out of the weakest decade of a conference maybe ever seen?

MJ was playing against championship caliber teams in the east while lebron wasn’t.

If there wasn’t a East and West and all teams were seeded 1 through 16 and that’s how the bracket was formed this would be useful info for comparison sake. It’s not.

Harambe wrote:

MJ is great but overrated. Couldn't win without HOF help -- as shown by his many first round exits.

LeGOAT gets it done on any team.

There’s literally been a hall of famer or two besides lebron in every one of his championship teams.

This entire thread is making me realize, OK reinforcing, that you can’t win with 1 great player surrounded by scrubs.

Jordan never did it. LeBron never did it. Hell I’m trying to think of anyone who did.

So almost any championship team will have at least a fearsome twosome. Jordan’s was always Pippen. Bron has shown he can get it done with multiple people.

Maybe that’s why it’s so hard to judge stuff like this.

When was the last time a superstar dragged a team to a championship that otherwise had no business winning it?

soaminator wrote:

This entire thread is making me realize, OK reinforcing, that you can’t win with 1 great player surrounded by scrubs.

Jordan never did it. LeBron never did it. Hell I’m trying to think of anyone who did.

So almost any championship team will have at least a fearsome twosome. Jordan’s was always Pippen. Bron has shown he can get it done with multiple people.

Maybe that’s why it’s so hard to judge stuff like this.

When was the last time a superstar dragged a team to a championship that otherwise had no business winning it?

2004 Detroit Pistons didn't have a real superstar. Iverson took his team to the finals but lost.

asdffjkfk wrote:

If Lebron was even close to goat status the ratings for the finals wouldn’t have been dogsh!t

? Probably true!

soaminator wrote:

This entire thread is making me realize, OK reinforcing, that you can’t win with 1 great player surrounded by scrubs.

Jordan never did it. LeBron never did it. Hell I’m trying to think of anyone who did.

So almost any championship team will have at least a fearsome twosome. Jordan’s was always Pippen. Bron has shown he can get it done with multiple people.

Maybe that’s why it’s so hard to judge stuff like this.

When was the last time a superstar dragged a team to a championship that otherwise had no business winning it?

As the other guy said, Iverson but they lost in the finals. Lebrons first trip to the finals he got there without much help but they got swept in the finals if I remember right.

You’re completely right though. It’s easy for people to get worked up over who’s the GOAT but there’s way too many variables to definitively know for sure.

Realistically, there’s just generational

GOATS but that’s no fun. Everyone loves the argument.

I do think the older you get you definitely have a bit more perspective. If you’re old enough to have seen two generations best players in real time you’ve got a little more than stats to go off.

There is no evidence L. James is a better ball player than was Jabbar.

Jabbar, high school state champion.

Jabbar did not play baseball but for the heck of it was by radar throwing 93 m.p.h. fastball.

Jabbar only lost one or two games in college. At least three college championships.

Jabbar won a championship with Milwaukee Bucks.

Jabbar has six rings just like Mike Jordan.

Jabbar is all-time leading scorer.

L. James looked good because he only had a 70 game season, but over 12 1/2 months!

Jabbar would have looked good for three more season playing 70 games over 12 1/2 months.

You can't compare different eras because of rules changes.

MJ doesn't get enough credit for his defense. Led the league in scoring AND was Defensive Player of the Year in the same year.

Lebron is more of a Magic Johnson than a Michael Jordan.

2020 is always going to be an asterisk season because of COVID.

Alan

Runningart2004 wrote:

You can't compare different eras because of rules changes.

MJ doesn't get enough credit for his defense. Led the league in scoring AND was Defensive Player of the Year in the same year.

Lebron is more of a Magic Johnson than a Michael Jordan.

2020 is always going to be an asterisk season because of COVID.

Alan

It is not necessarily fair to compare stats from one era to another. Anyone attempting to state L. James is better than Jabbar is suffering from recency bias. Pat Reilly and Dwayne Wade had to teach L James how to win. No one needed to teach Jabbar how to win. Mike Jordan should not even be mentioned in conversation. Pippen and the rest of the fellas went to Eastern Conference Championship sans Jordan when Jordan was playing baseball. N.B.A. was a rough league when Jabbar played. There is no hand-checking allowed today in N.B.A. Jabbar would have scored so many more points if Jabbar were playing in this era, we would not even being having a conversation. Jabbar clearly superior to L. James.

I don't think Lebron is better than a number of players, and MJ was particularly better. MJ helped turned the sport into an international phenomenon. Lebron, even with the NBA's China butt-kissing, does not capture anyone's imagination despite the massive propaganda effort by the sports media to declare him the greatest player. They did not need to do that with Jordan, because it was obvious.

I never said the Bulls were bad without Jordan. Clearly they were good. But obviously, Jordan was far and away the biggest reason they were favored in the Finals.

I'm generally pro-LeBron but some of the arguments people make are superficial and clearly biased for/against him rather than trying to come up with a fair assessment. For example, the whole "the league was better in the 80s" go-to argument. Yeah, there was more hand checking and more tolerance for blatant hacks, but that doesn't mean it was more physical. Nowadays the competition has increased (the sport has grown, larger talent pool, greater financial incentive), players are fitter and more athletic and skilled than ever, and the spacing that people think is "soft" makes it hard as hell to play defense (ie, extremely physically taxing moving that much). Also, getting rid of hand-checking is largely offset by allowing zone...I mean, when I watch highlights from the 80s it's laughable to think that the defense they're playing (half the time standing straight up with hands down) would be tolerated for even 2 possessions in today's game.

Point being, it's complex and ultimately impossible to draw perfect parallels between eras, but thinking Jordan's achievements outweigh LeBron's is hardly controversial. having been there for both I've never felt the same level of sheer dominance and singular determination from LeBron. So maybe he's the 2nd or 3rd best player ever. That's not an insult.

Jabbar had 4 years with John Wooden and then Oscar Robertson as a teammate. Lebron didn't have this luxury. He realized he needed to grow up and learn how to be a leader and he sought out Dwayne Wade. I enjoyed his speech the other day where he talked about this and how he is doing the same with AD.