11 miler @ 7:13 but empty tank after 1 mile into the 5k- how do I improve?

You’re going out to hard for your fitness. How you hit 5:45 matters too e.g. Say splitting 2:30/3:15 vs 2:50/2:55, that can really change the rest of the race. Try going out in 6:05/6:10 and hitting it very even. It’ll feel really slow, that’s ok. I know, in HS everyone tears out at the start, but just don’t do it! And then enjoy running them all down over miles 2 and 3.

You can run faster.

5:45 to 19:30 is a pretty major blow-up. It seems like to much of a blow-up to just be mental.

How do you warm-up for your race?

What do you do the day before the race?

lurker wrote:

You’re going out to hard for your fitness. How you hit 5:45 matters too e.g. Say splitting 2:30/3:15 vs 2:50/2:55, that can really change the rest of the race. Try going out in 6:05/6:10 and hitting it very even. It’ll feel really slow, that’s ok. I know, in HS everyone tears out at the start, but just don’t do it! And then enjoy running them all down over miles 2 and 3.

lurker’s advice is good. Give it a try. The 6:20 11th mile made me think that you should be able to hold onto 5:45 better, but after thinking a little longer, I realized that the 6:20 11th mile as you describe the whole progression run should be quite a bit easier than a 5:45 5th km. You should be able to at least even split the pace he described. If you blow-up after going out at 6:05ish, then you can worry more.

would it kill you to purposely start "too slow"?

Give yourself permission to use the next race an experiment. Go out slow, like pick a time that would feel comfortably hard and hit that, THEN crank it down.

Think of this xc race as a 2m race.

How slow could you run the first mile, to where you could really lower the boom over the last 2M? 615? 620? whatever number you stumble on, do that. And CRUSH it for 2M.

The day before, I do a 20 minute shakeout(lowest mileage for the week) and 4-8 strides at race pace or slightly faster.

My race warmup typically consists of a 10 minute jog followed by dynamic stretches and 3-4 50m accelerations.

NotPC wrote:

would it kill you to purposely start "too slow"?

Give yourself permission to use the next race an experiment. Go out slow, like pick a time that would feel comfortably hard and hit that, THEN crank it down.

Think of this xc race as a 2m race.

How slow could you run the first mile, to where you could really lower the boom over the last 2M? 615? 620? whatever number you stumble on, do that. And CRUSH it for 2M.

Interesting idea. Last race, my plan was to go out at 6min/mile pace and try to hold that or negative split to an 18:40.

The only problem is, I've never negative split on my mile/2 mile PR's and the coach wants me going out at 5:30-5:45 pace. I can do that easy but the at the 2 1/2 mile mark I fall off.

Now that the races matter more as we approach regionals I feel apprehensive about taking my chances on a 6 minute 1st mile, which is way at the back of the pack for a varsity level race. Don't want to run JV though, because I need the competition.

3x5:45 on the track or grass? If not on track, was it accuate?

texasmiler wrote:

The day before, I do a 20 minute shakeout(lowest mileage for the week) and 4-8 strides at race pace or slightly faster.

My race warmup typically consists of a 10 minute jog followed by dynamic stretches and 3-4 50m accelerations.

You might try a longer warmup. Maybe do the same thing you do for the premeet day: 20:00 shakeout plus strides.

Some people also like to include a little uptempo running in the warmup, something like 3:00 at tempo-ish effort. A couple of 1:00 pickups at a similar effort. Not hard, just looking to get the engine going.

Real Dealer wrote:

3x5:45 on the track or grass? If not on track, was it accuate?

The mile repeats were the accurate distance, on grass with spikes, 4 minute rest.

Other recent Vo2 type workouts have been pretty conistent, I can hit 3:50 for 6x1k on grass, 12x400m @ 80sec, etc.

going faster miles an hour wrote:

texasmiler wrote:

The day before, I do a 20 minute shakeout(lowest mileage for the week) and 4-8 strides at race pace or slightly faster.

My race warmup typically consists of a 10 minute jog followed by dynamic stretches and 3-4 50m accelerations.

You might try a longer warmup. Maybe do the same thing you do for the premeet day: 20:00 shakeout plus strides.

Some people also like to include a little uptempo running in the warmup, something like 3:00 at tempo-ish effort. A couple of 1:00 pickups at a similar effort. Not hard, just looking to get the engine going.

Great Idea! This could mirror the long run effect and I think that my body is working against me when I'm racing so while it might seem counterintuitive I'll give it a shot.

My guess is that they were a fraction short and they were flat. The rest period was too long. 1/2 rest is normal which would be about 2:50. I am not a fan of doing much at all in spikes. But that all being said, you should be able to race 18:35. 5:55-6:00-6:05.

Hope it works for you! Based on the eleven miler you did, you clearly have enough endurance to handle a longer warmup, and you may be the kind of athlete who benefits from getting the flywheel going a little more, so to speak.

There are a lot of ways to approach the warmup, and different things work for different people, so it's worth experimenting to see what works for you.

you're leaving your race in your long run and probably doing every single workout too fast. What are these workout times based on?

using the daniels calculator (notorious for having a faster easy run pace) your easy runs should be around 8:04 - 8:50. If you really are a Texas miler, it might be slower than that because of the heat

1. who cares what the coach wants, if he GETS a faster time?

2. I know that 6min is way back for varsity, I also know that FINISHING in 19 min is way back.

3. Consider it, as an approach, if after this race 600 min is too slow then you can work backwards from that because obviously 540-30 is too fast. personally I dont see where you have much choice.

Like my old HS coach used to say" Going out fast and dying IS a race strategy.... it's a dumb one, but it IS a strategy."

What is the rest in the 3x1mi and 6x800m? Also if you are PR is 19:30, why don't you try to run 6 minute pace to start? Given your workouts you should break 19 easy.

texasmiler wrote:

The mile repeats were the accurate distance, on grass with spikes, 4 minute rest.

Other recent Vo2 type workouts have been pretty conistent, I can hit 3:50 for 6x1k on grass, 12x400m @ 80sec, etc.

If you want to hit 3 consecutive miles at 5:45, then you should be able to do 3xMile at 5:45 with way less than 4:00 recovery. Try 60-90s jog recovery instead.

It's simple. You are not racing fresh. You are starting the race in a fatigued state due to too much mileage / intensity in the week leading up.

Try just doing strides and easy running in the week before, and dropping your mileage 10%. Take the last 3 days before your race at easy or recovery effort.

I can do a similar thing for 11 miles, and also run in the low 17's. But I would run exactly what you did if I tried to race not completely fresh.

TL; DR, but based on the thread title alone, you're going out too fast.

Right. It's cooled off now but the team doesn't really understand the concept of recovery runs and take the 5-8 mile easy runs @ 7:30-7:45. Historically, when I ran on my own at 40 MPW i would do all easy runs @ 8:30 pace regardless.

The workout times are based on the race pace of guys on the team with a 17:xx 5k, but I've done K's before joining the team so I have a pretty good idea for what I can handle doing Vo2 workouts