Avoiding marathons in the short term to get faster long term

I'm not sure if my point will come across well; but I suppose other way of looking at it, is have I 'moved up' to the marathon too quickly?

In the elite world (which clearly isn't me), the general approach until some recent exceptions seems to be to maximize ability at 5k-10k first, before then moving up to marathons.

For my amateurish equivalent, I don't yet feel as though I have 'maxed out' at those shorter distances - but my progress in those races seems to have stopped since I focused on marathons. Yet I read about people running 10k PBs off marathon training, and I wonder how the hell they manage that!?

The plus point of marathons is that they are great events to be a part of; and I have loved the ones I've done. But I feel like if I follow my current track I will be forever limited to running 2:45 to 2:50

I guess you answered your own question better than anybody else could.

But since you started so late with running just do it your way.

For us normal runners with jobs and family, the progression is not as clear cut as for highly talented runners who started on track and moved on to Marathon.

I’m similar to you in both times, age and experience and have often thought the same question. Some part of me thinks it might not matter for us dudes. But another part says why not, give it a shot. Nothing to lose. So that’s what I’m going to do this late fall/winter—work on shorter and faster and see what it does.

Thanks to both of the above. I feel like I'm at a bit of a cross roads in all honesty... It feels like I could go one way towards the marathon and eventually to something like Comrades which I'd like to do one day regardless;

Or; I could go the other way, and focus on the 5k/10k with the hopeful result of raising my 'ceiling' for the marathon

I suppose the answer is obvious - if I have aspirations of running 2:30; then my 5k time simply has to come down, and that would probably also go for my mile time (though I've never raced one)...

But is there a way to 'balance' training for a 5k PB alongside retaining enough endurance for a marathon? My gut feeling says 'no', on the basis that the long runs I need for the marathon (18-21) take so much out of me, they limit the other training I can handle... It's like I can cope with an 18-21 mile long run + one quality day midweek; but if I try TWO quality efforts midweek, plus the long run, then I break down....

It seems from experience that if I want to hit two days a week which include faster work (which in my head is anything HM pace or quicker); then I have to limit my long run to 13-14 miles in order to keep the schedule sustainable.....

Problem is that 13-14 mile long runs ain't gonna cut it for the marathon; but 1 fast day a week ain't gonna cut it (for me) to improve 5k/10k. What am I missing? Or is striking a balance impossible?

My slow recovery from long runs (even when I take them easy) seems to be a big issue. I just feel flat. If I run 20 on Saturday, it is Tuesday at best (often Wednesday) before I'm up for a fast session; then a couple of days recovery and it's long run day again, and the cycle restarts. Am I unusually limited in this respect? I recover faster from a deep interval session than from an 18-20 mile plod

I have same 5km and 10km as you with just slightly faster half and full times. I only started to run seriously at 36 so don’t worry about time (I’m 40 now and all PRs were set in the last year)

I probably had a good aerobic base from other sports when I started running but still improving. I think that aerobic aspect for the longer distances takes time so perhaps that’s why not to the level you’d like to see yet

Frank Shorter here wrote:

I guess you answered your own question better than anybody else could.

But since you started so late with running just do it your way.

For us normal runners with jobs and family, the progression is not as clear cut as for highly talented runners who started on track and moved on to Marathon.

Thought about this some more; and I think the lack of a track background is really limiting, when someone gets quite serious about running, but at an older age.

Maybe it isn't an issue if all you want to do is complete races with little regard for racing them; but it's like you get to a certain 'good' standard (got to be careful with that word on letsrun...), and then start banging up against limitations, as they were never addressed when in school

I am 35 and am taking this approach. I want to see how fast I can run on the 5k - HM over the next 2-3 years before taking a wack or 2 at a fast marathon. My reasoning is:

1) As a newish runner (14 months in) I need more lifetime miles on my legs

2) I am more likely to string together training cycles injury free while still improving at 60-75 miles a week. I don’t feel like I could run a great marathon at that MPW level.

3) Age will become an issue sooner at the shorter distances than the longer distances. Best to strike while the iron is hot.

highhoppingworm wrote:

I am 35 and am taking this approach. I want to see how fast I can run on the 5k - HM over the next 2-3 years before taking a wack or 2 at a fast marathon. My reasoning is:

1) As a newish runner (14 months in) I need more lifetime miles on my legs

2) I am more likely to string together training cycles injury free while still improving at 60-75 miles a week. I don’t feel like I could run a great marathon at that MPW level.

3) Age will become an issue sooner at the shorter distances than the longer distances. Best to strike while the iron is hot.

I think this is a good plan personally. I played sports as a kid, tennis and football mostly; but then did next to no exercise for 10 years. So when I started running at 27, the improvement was dramatic - 2:03 for the half at my first attempt, then 1:31 exactly 12 months later. It is amazing what just running regularly does. Obviously the improvement slowed a bit after that, but I've still been able to run PBs year on year, except for a year when I was traveling.

I reckon it is if you have a recent background in other sports; so you might find you improve at a faster rate than I did.

Agree on the age front; from what I understand, fast twitch fibers diminish earlier than slow twitch, so you've got to train them, in order to retain them! Pete Magil is good on this subject; I've read one of his books.

My experience is that the grind of marathon training kills that pop in my legs, and since I don't have great speed from a track background, I don't have much 'pop' to spare. As I mentioned above - it's the long runs that seem to kill it for me. They take too much time to recover from, and because of that they limit the amount of fast sessions I can fit in.

Have you found 60-75 to be a sweet spot? That's right on the money for me tbh... Ideally 9 runs a week, with a couple of 30min doubles, 2x interval workouts (8/10 or 9/10 types, not killing yourself), and a long run which stops at 1:30-1:40 before I go in to the recovery 'black hole' - that "feels" right to me... But I get away from it so quickly when I listen to the voice that says "why don't you train for another marathon..."

I am finding that 10 day training cycles with 2 workouts, one long run workout, 1 day off and 6 easy days is my sweet spot. This usually lands me at 95-105 for the 10 day cycle and around 70 a week.

I don’t run doubles due to time constraints so 6-7 runs a week for me.

Makemegetfast wrote:

My experience is that the grind of marathon training kills that pop in my legs, and since I don't have great speed from a track background, I don't have much 'pop' to spare. As I mentioned above - it's the long runs that seem to kill it for me. They take too much time to recover from, and because of that they limit the amount of fast sessions I can fit in.

So far no one has commented on recovery. Here are a few ideas to consider.

Shoes: In a two-hour run, your legs take a lot of pounding. Your feet hit the ground over 20,000 times with a force of roughly 2 1/2 times your body weight. A better-cushioned shoe or a better insert in your existing shoe might help.

Running surface: Dirt roads have ceased to exist in most areas, but if you can find one, you will find that you recover better the next day.

Massage: I have a Hypervolt massager. I can tell a difference the next day when I use it after a hard run. A foam roller would a decent 2nd choice.

Icing immediately after running: It doesn't have to be freezing... just a tray of ice cubes into a shallow bath.

Epsom salts soaks in the evening after a long run in the morning. It doesn't need to be really hot.

I think you need to bend your yearly training strategy towards your needs.

Focus to train for the 5k/10k races in spring and prepare for a late October/November Marathon for example. (We leave out Covid and Weather issues for this)

And maybe you should do less long of long runs for the Marathon.

I (30 yo, M) have delayed my move to the marathon for the reason you describe. I found I am still improving at shorter distances and want to see how fast I can get before focusing on the marathon. I have done "marathon" training over a couple of winters just as a way to put in quality volume, and I have a couple of thoughts from that

First, I found the 1/2 marathon a good sweet spot in terms of training for both a fast 10k and keeping a high mileage progression with an eye towards a future marathon. If you find yourself in PR shape for a 1/2, you are probably ready for a 10K PR too.

Second, I think you may find the tradeoff becomes easier with more mileage and more time. When I first starting regularly running 70 miles per week I had no top speed at all... it just vanished! But it did come back. It took a couple of years getting used to high mileage. Now I am pretty comfortable running fast workouts at 80 mpw, but it would have absolutely destroyed me 5 years ago.

Third, as some other posters have pointed out, you may want to try breaking your year up into sections. Focus on base for 6 months, then reduce mileage a bit and focus on speed, or the other way around. It helps keep things interesting too

Cheers,

-Not A Golfer

Makemegetfast wrote:

then a couple of days recovery and it's long run day again, and the cycle restarts. Am I unusually limited in this respect? I recover faster from a deep interval session than from an 18-20 mile plod

The simple answer is your 18-20 mile runs are much too hard for you right now. Taking 3 days to recover is a race effort not a workout. Slow them down, find softer surfaces, eat better, and alternate 90min long runs with those 2:30+ runs. Do a double if you need it to inflate your mileage on that day. Those long runs aren't really aren't helping your aerobic abilities any more than a 90 +60 min runs would. They do help in getting your legs used to running for 3 hours but you are over doing it.

The exact opposite worked for me. I only began making serious progress in my track and cross country times after I started training for marathons. I would say to train for the marathon race regularly at shorter distances in the process.

Here’s my take, because I think my running history is relevant.

There is no need to train for the shorter events to get faster at the marathon. In the 8 or so years I’ve been running (started early twenties) I’ve only ever trained for the marathon. To this day I still haven’t run a 5k that’s not a parkrun. My marathon PB has improved from 2:57 to 2:28. When I first ran 2:30:xx my official 5k PB (from a parkrun) was about 15 seconds faster than yours, although I did run faster in a 10k (33:3x) as a tune up race.

Below the marathon my PBs are weak, true. And they could easily be improved by just racing more. But the key point is: you certainly can get (a lot) better at the marathon by just training the marathon. Especially relative to the PBs you’ve already got.

Some might say that I could be a better marathoner had I done more specific training at the shorter distances. Maybe. But I enjoyed marathon training so that’s what I did. My suggestion would be to stick to what you enjoy and with consistency you will see improvement.

Specifically on your long runs: they seem long to me. I now limit my long runs to 2:20, but I will cover 20 miles in that time. When I was running my long runs slower I would go up to 3 hours. It does sound like you’re taking a while to recover, but if you’re fitting in: 1. 70 miles total, 2. A long run, and 3. Are recovered enough for a tempo-threshold type workout (on Thursday) then it seems to me like you’re covering all your bases.

dadsfadsfdasfdsafdas wrote:

Makemegetfast wrote:

then a couple of days recovery and it's long run day again, and the cycle restarts. Am I unusually limited in this respect? I recover faster from a deep interval session than from an 18-20 mile plod

The simple answer is your 18-20 mile runs are much too hard for you right now. Taking 3 days to recover is a race effort not a workout. Slow them down, find softer surfaces, eat better, and alternate 90min long runs with those 2:30+ runs. Do a double if you need it to inflate your mileage on that day. Those long runs aren't really aren't helping your aerobic abilities any more than a 90 +60 min runs would. They do help in getting your legs used to running for 3 hours but you are over doing it.

Thanks dadsfadsfdasfdsafdas; I've often wondered where the benefits of long runs max out. It's hard to judge, but I do feel like those longer efforts don't really get me 'fitter' - in the aerobic sense of the word.

Should I be considering those long efforts (say 2hr to 2:30) to be more about building durability?

How often do you feel that these extra extensive runs should be included in a marathon program?

The mental battle I often have is that if I run 2hrs very easy it might be 8min pace, which is 15 miles; and that just seems wholly too little for marathon training. I get overtaken by the feeling that it's necessary to run 18-20 week in week out - do you think there is a place for 90 min or 2hr long runs in marathon training, with perhaps an extra-long one less frequently?

dadsfadsfdasfdsafdas wrote:

Makemegetfast wrote:

then a couple of days recovery and it's long run day again, and the cycle restarts. Am I unusually limited in this respect? I recover faster from a deep interval session than from an 18-20 mile plod

The simple answer is your 18-20 mile runs are much too hard for you right now. Taking 3 days to recover is a race effort not a workout. Slow them down, find softer surfaces, eat better, and alternate 90min long runs with those 2:30+ runs. Do a double if you need it to inflate your mileage on that day. Those long runs aren't really aren't helping your aerobic abilities any more than a 90 +60 min runs would. They do help in getting your legs used to running for 3 hours but you are over doing it.

Apologies; I see you already answered some of my points above in your post! Been a long day here!!

HRE wrote:

The exact opposite worked for me. I only began making serious progress in my track and cross country times after I started training for marathons. I would say to train for the marathon race regularly at shorter distances in the process.

Thanks HRE and notes about the racing - plan to race much more when the world eventually gets back to normal.

It's funny how different things work for different people. Subjectivity, I felt my fittest (and ran HM and 10k PBs), when I was running an average of 55mpw for about a 12 week period (at that time a new high for me), putting in two fairly short interval runs, or tempo or cruise intervals; and almost totally disregarding the long run, often being just 12 miles.

Thanks, this is a great reply, as is is so relevant. I'd be really interested to hear what your training looked like throughout that progression down to sub 2:30, as I am at a similar level to where you started out?

How did you choose to vary midweek workouts? I tend to get drawn in to a box ticking type exercise where it feels as though I have to make midweek session long intervals of some kind, and that doing something shorter and easier (like a Daniels rep session) seems a waste of good training time. As a result I wonder if perhaps I don't get the variety I need, and that each week (while consistent) might be too similar.

On the long runs, how did you balance then week on week? Always to 2:20 or sometimes shorter? Did you tend to include any speed in the long runs, or just focus on putting in the miles? A 3hr run sounds longgg, but presumably you didn't do these week in week out?