Stockholm DL Live Discussion

Semiler wrote:

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Another loss by Jakob due to his limited sprint speed. Remember when everyone, including his coach, said after his 1:46.44 800m earlier this summer that this is proof he got all the speed he needs to win championship races? It does not look like it at all, and seems to be exactly the thing holding him back now.

A 3:30 is hardly a tactical race. Timothy is a better runner over 1500m. That is why he won.

I mean, 3:30 is obviously a very quick race but there was still a prominent pace change in the final 100m. I’ve never run a maxed out 15 where I’ve been able to really change gears in the homestretch.

I think it was a comfortable victory for Tim - he knew he had the extra gear and when you’re leading that means no one is getting by you.

outsider69 wrote:

I hate when people say "tactical race" meaning slow. Every race plan is a tactic. Running all out from the gun is a tactic. Sitting back and kicking is a tactic.

Then what expression do you propose for races run much slower than the runners capabilities? Or are we simply not allowed to discuss races in such a manner?

Men and Women 800 not as fast as expected. Men and women 1500 not as fast as expected. It means that it was a good day but not great for fast times. Engels finished 6th in 3:37 if that puts the 3:30 into perspective.

Based on Jakob's body language, he just knows he can't beat Cheruiyot right now. He simply does not have any change in gears. He's a pure strength runner. Great run by McSw to put himself in the mix and get some confidence going shoulder to shoulder with Jakob on the last lap.

go go away wrote:

Men and Women 800 not as fast as expected. Men and women 1500 not as fast as expected. It means that it was a good day but not great for fast times.

Did anyone seriously expect times on the level of Monaco, especially as Monaco was only 9 days ago?

men's 1500m had good (very fast, 3:27-28 goal) pacing but the leaders decided to wait for a late decision with a slowish 3rd lap.

Men's 800m has Brazier playing it safe.

Women's 800m had the pacing a bit slow and the only one who could have challenged Reekie, Rogers, not yet at her best and tactically weak (Rogers should have closed the gap to the pacer herself, not let Reekie in)

women's 1500m had decent pacing, a bit too slow (for sub 4 goal, but much better than e.g. Zurich last year) but as #2-8 ran 4:01-03 SB/PB it was actually pretty much perfect for most of them. Muir can hardly be expected to run faster than 3:57 if she is almost 5 secs ahead of the rest. Without Kipyegon, Dibaba, Houlihan, Hassan and the like we are not going to get lots of women sub 4, even less sub 3:57.

Stockholm is typically slow across the board. And at the finish of the M1500, you can see why: the flags are flapping like Ches' right arm in a finishing sprint.

Just watched some of the replays.

Extremely dominant looking race for Brazier. He was boxed in on the last turn, snuck through a gap diagnoally at the beginning of the home straight, accelereated into a huge lead and then let up the last 10 meters or so. Too easy.

It was obvious by Muir's fluid stride and determined look that she was going to win her race. Broken out of the medium paced pack to run a 59 last lap and massively gap the field.

Canova is here, for confirming that Warholm doesn't have the same "natural" talent of Samba and Benjamin for the event.

Warholm was World Champion, when Youth, of Octathon, and silver medal in European Junior Champs in Decathlon with more than 7700 points. As decathlete, Warholm had to train for 4-6 hours per day, building a mentality very much different from the mentality of athletes coming from sprint (such as Benjamin).

Warholm built his strength for hurdles through a lot of training including different events, and, under the mental point of view, learnt how not fearing any external situation : cold, hot, wind, noise, type of track, behavior of the other competitors. This is not what happens with Samba and Benjamin : they don't have the same physical efficiency ogf Karsten, and the same continuity and volume of training.

But there are no doubts that, looking at the basic specific talent required for 400m hurdles, both of them have something more, as morphology and as speed.

Warholm has ability to recover in very short time his maximal efforts, something built with years of big volume of training in different directions, and with the practice to compete in many events every time, because of his origin as decathlete , something of sure nor Samba neither Benjamin have.

In Stockholm, Warholm ran under 47" again, in conditions absolutely not good for short events : the performances (men and women) in 200m M, 100m W, 400m M/W, 800m W, clearly show that the day was not ideal for running very fast. In these conditions, running 46"87 is something unbelievable, and it's obvious that Karsten can run very close 46" in ideal conditions.

go go away wrote:

Men and Women 800 not as fast as expected. Men and women 1500 not as fast as expected. It means that it was a good day but not great for fast times. Engels finished 6th in 3:37 if that puts the 3:30 into perspective.

I mean.... not sure what more you wanted from Muir in the women's races? A solo 3:55? Stockholm is a slow windy track.

Tbh it's wild Warholm ran the time he did.

Renato Canova wrote:

But there are no doubts that, looking at the basic specific talent required for 400m hurdles, both of them have something more, as morphology and as speed.

Ahhh, please explain this one. Especially speed. You do realize Warholm has a faster 200 PR than Samba right? And that he likely has a faster 400 flat in him at the moment than either one?

Morphology huh? Hehehe. You're certainly making it obvious as to where you are trying to go with this though.

Warholm incredible performance. He lost a couple tenths likely in conditions and in how he hit that hurdle and lost some steam. It was swirling winds, which definitely affected pretty much everything. It also makes Warholm’s 400m look better. That might be a 44.7-8 or so in good conditions (his PB is 44.87), and on the second leg of a double.

Cheruiyot chilled the third lap and just managed the race. Jakob doesn’t have the kick needed to beat him just yet. I think that Tim decision was very wind-related.

Brazier mentioned having some foot issues since coming over, so that makes a little more sense on his conservative race plan.

Muir was paced perfectly to cruise and then drop the hammer the last 400. It’s a shame Kipyegon opted not to race. Is it because she wants to put all her eggs into one basket for a very fast 1500?

Rogers kinda blew up the chance of a fast pace by forcing Reekie wide a lot, running too wide herself, and not really clinging to the pacer who didn’t go out too fast. Reekie had a nice kick to go a good bit under 30 the last 200, even having run a lot of extra distance in the race.

What a run by Warholm amongst mostly a slow day at the track.

I'm actually very surprised that Jakob I. has already established himself as the premier competitor to Cheriyuot. I thought that wasn't going to happen until at least 2021.

Great to see two historic level talents battle it out. Making 3:30 seem like a slow day at the office.

YMMV wrote:

Stockholm is typically slow across the board. And at the finish of the M1500, you can see why: the flags are flapping like Ches' right arm in a finishing sprint.

Haha, i agree. One reason Monaco's track is so fast is because the huge stadium blocks any kind of wind.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Another loss by Jakob due to his limited sprint speed. Remember when everyone, including his coach, said after his 1:46.44 800m earlier this summer that this is proof he got all the speed he needs to win championship races? It does not look like it at all, and seems to be exactly the thing holding him back now.

Yes, a terrible result for Jakob. Losing to a guy that is capable of breaking the world record.

Do you really think that Jakob and his coach is not aware that Cheruyiot is a faster finisher and better sprinter than him? Cheruyiot has a 1:43 800m PB. Could it be that they are working on it but the fact is that pure speed is one of the least trainable qualities in distance running? No, LRP of course knows best and they haven't figured that obvious thing out yet.

How is that Tinman training going? Beat Jakob or come within 3minutes of his 5k PB yet?

unregistered track guy wrote:

What a run by Warholm amongst mostly a slow day at the track.

I'm actually very surprised that Jakob I. has already established himself as the premier competitor to Cheriyuot. I thought that wasn't going to happen until at least 2021.

Great to see two historic level talents battle it out. Making 3:30 seem like a slow day at the office.

His level of consistency is something. Not surprised he’s the clear no. 2, though. Mahkloufi as usual is MIA, and Jakob has been as good or better than everyone else.

Samba's run 45.00 or better three times, albeit once at altitude. His best 200m is not among the top 3521 listed on all-time athletics.

674 44.60A Abderrahmane Samba QAT 05.09.95 1rA Pretoria 09.04.2019

728 44.62 Abderrahmane Samba QAT 05.09.95 5 London 21.07.2018

Benjamin's easily the best sprinter of the three, 19.99 against a -0.6 m/s wind, and one other top 1000 performance. He's also 33rd all-time indoors at 20.34.

332 19.99 -0.6 Rai Benjamin ANT 27.07.97 2 Paris 30.06.2018

998 20.16 +0.4 Rai Benjamin ANT 27.07.97 4 Lausanne 05.07.2018

Benjamin's run 44.31 400m, as well as 44.74, and has a 43.6 or 43.7 relay split.

254 44.31 Rai Benjamin USA 27.07.97 2r3 Torrance 20.04.2019

1097 44.74 Rai Benjamin ANT 27.07.97 2r2 Torrance 21.04.2018

Warholm's run 44.87/44.91/45.05. His best 200m is not listed on all-time athletics. Samba's got an edge here as well. Warholm just ran 45.05 after 46.86 400mH, so he clearly can run mid 44 or better, but maybe Samba can as well. Warholm has the edge right now, but not much over Samba and Benjamin in their best performances, and that edge consists in having better endurance and an impossibly long stride pattern. What will get Warholm the world record in the hurdles is having Benjamin or Samba in the race to push him. No guarantee that Benjamin wouldn't get it instead with his incredible 400m speed.

Also worth noting, Tim closed his last 100 in 13.1 and Jakob could only manage 13.4. Unlike last week where Tim really just held him off, this time he pulled away.

Splits here:

https://stockholm.diamondleague.com/live/libs/jetuniversalcomponents/modules/pdfViewer/viewer.html?file=https://livecache.sportresult.com/node/binaryData/ATH_PROD/STOCKHOLM2020/PDF_ARE0130040.PDF?h=s6nA/R3BgxB4zmbOD7ovZ0Qml88=

Too bad that they would have the pacer go out in 54/1:50 high, with no one really drafting off the pacers (Tim was too far back and Jakob didn't even try to draft off of Tim until the last lap) and then let the pace lag to 58 again. No reason whatsoever not to go out comfortably in 55/56 or 56/56 feeling full of running, then go through in 55/and hopefully 39-40 for a great shot at the world record.

outsider69 wrote:

cmon man wrote:

And sons always supersede their dads. Poor Tim, the biggest loser of Tokyo being postponed. Not a chance Jakob wontbbe ahead of him in 2021.

Lol no chance. When has Jacob won a race that matters?

*JaKob

Eh, double European Champion at 18?