Most Talented Runner in History? Daniel Komen or Kenenisa Bekele?

Coevett wrote:

Cliff notes for this thread.

All the most talented runners of the last 150 years were born in 2 or 3 doping hotspots and at their peak within 5 years or so of the height of the EPO era.

A whole host of runners have been doped up. Jama Aden is still running around injecting his athletes now. China doped so openly that the women's world records were practically untouchable for decades. They still don't come even remotely close to Bekele, Komen, and Gebrselassie.

thats because komen never wanted a long career, he just wanted to do well for a bit to earn something and then he left

pointer of points wrote:

Michael Norman is the most talented runner of all time. He is one of only 4 runners who is top 20 all time in at least 3 events and he is only 22.

Komen

1500 3:29.46 19th AT

Mile 3:46.38 5th AT

2000 4:51.30 10th AT

3000 7:20.67 WR

2 mile 7:58.61 WR

50000 12:39.74 3rd AT

Yeah, Norman has him cover!

This is a pretty awesome concept. Sub 10 4k would be unreal, I like this universe.

John Wesley Harding wrote:

In the alternate reality from which I hail, where 4k is the standard championship and circuit race distance, Bekele and Komen are the only men to have broken 10:00. Make of that what you will.

This is a pretty awesome concept. Sub 10 4k would be unreal, I like this universe.

Deanouk wrote:

ex-runner wrote:

Personally, I think the most talented runners of the last 150 years were all born in England a couple years apart and around their peak in the period where doping was legal with steroids and blood transfusions and there was no testing.

You have been corrected on this blatant lie several times, but keep peddling it.

What is the lie? Blood doping and EPO achieve the same thing, there was no test for blood doping in the Coe/Cram/Ovett era and it was a well established process used by athletes in all endurance sports. We learned about it at school even.

Steroids were legal until 1976 and the first 'suprise' drug tests to be carried out in-competition were in 1983. Nobody was ever tested out of competition. Before then athletes were individually informed ahead of time they would be tested at a competition. In fact they did the first surprise testing at a competition in 1983 and half the athletes didn’t show up. Over 60% of those asked at the 1984 Olympics admitted to using steroids.

Blood doping was legal until 1986. It was well known about in elite sport since the 70s. It was finally banned due to the health implications and was used in middle and long distance running and cycling.

You can read this on Wikipedia it’s really public knowledge. It is the same argument as ‘no test for EPO’ in the 90s, simply applied to the 80s.

2 nominees not yet mentioned in this thread:

David Rudisha - 3 fastest 800 performances must count for something

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4694207

Deerfoot ? - 19th century Native American runner who gained celebrity status beating all-comers in Europe and famously stated “I have never trained”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deerfoot

Rudisha is good. Running 1:44.1 at age 18 is no joke. 6 of the top 8 times in an event speaks for itself. Throw in how he could come back from layoffs/injuries and still be dominant and run incredible times in finals, winning in a variety of ways (while setting the pace),

I'll go with Henry Rono. Accomplishments on the track aside, he was also the NCAA XC champion in 1976, 1977 and 1978. Seeing him run a 5000 meter live in person on Hayward Field in Eugene is still one the most amazing athletic experiences I have ever witnessed.

Don't try to argue with those British fan boys, they live in their own fantasy world, where any argument will be stretched until it fits the narrativ that British middle distance running is the sole clean island in the whole dirty ocean of world of sports.

pcli5kdoc wrote:

I'll go with Henry Rono. Accomplishments on the track aside, he was also the NCAA XC champion in 1976, 1977 and 1978. Seeing him run a 5000 meter live in person on Hayward Field in Eugene is still one the most amazing athletic experiences I have ever witnessed.

I agree, pure talent it has to be Rono. If it wasn't for his problems with alcohol he would still hold some WRs. I am not knocking the other greats mentioned in this thread by any means, but again, pure talent it has to be Rono. The times he ran living an unhealthy lifestyle are just amazing.

broken arrow wrote:

pcli5kdoc wrote:

I'll go with Henry Rono. Accomplishments on the track aside, he was also the NCAA XC champion in 1976, 1977 and 1978. Seeing him run a 5000 meter live in person on Hayward Field in Eugene is still one the most amazing athletic experiences I have ever witnessed.

I agree, pure talent it has to be Rono. If it wasn't for his problems with alcohol he would still hold some WRs. I am not knocking the other greats mentioned in this thread by any means, but again, pure talent it has to be Rono. The times he ran living an unhealthy lifestyle are just amazing.

Sounds good to me ?

Romo has to be up there. He seems like a more over-the-top version of Komen. On that note, you might throw Sammy Wanjiru into the mix here. Gone too soon, but he did some absurd things and often with poor preparation and an imperfect lifestyle.

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

Also the Ngeny smearing is bunk. Feel free to write him off because of his fast times and success against El Guerrouj - that is fine. The 2001 WC debacle is very clearly Athletics Kenya being Athletics Kenya. He kept racing, and presumably getting tested. Don't buy that as drug-related one bit.

Well, let us look at Ngeny's 1999 season:

13.06.1999 Villeneuve d`Ascq IAAF-Permit 1500m 3:31,12 (1.) +2,33s;

16.06.1999 Athína 1500m 3:31,32 (1.) +0,82s;

02.07.1999 Lausanne Athlétissima / GP 1500m 3:31,18 (1.) +2,72s;

07.07.1999 Roma Golden Gala / Golden League 1 Mile 3:43,40 (2.) -0,27s;

17.07.1999 Nice NIKAIA / GP 1000m 2:12,66 (1.) AR / +0,90s;

21.07.1999 Paris Gaz de France / Golden League 1500m 3:28,84 (1.) NR / +2,07s;

30.07.1999 Stockholm Dagens Nyheter Galan / GP 2000m 4:50,08 (1.) +5,12s;

04.08.1999 Monaco Herculis / Golden League 1500m 3:29,79 (1.) +0,82;

11.08.1999 Zürich Weltklasse in Zürich / Golden League 1500m 3:30,28 (2.) -1,71s;

24.08.1999 Sevilla World Championships 1500m 3:28,73 (2.) NR / -1,08s;

03.09.1999 Bruxelles Memorial Van Damme / Golden League 1500m 3:29,19 (1.) +2,90s;

05.09.1999 Rieti (ITA) Rieti Meeting 1000m 2:11,96 (1.) WR / +2,45s;

11.09.1999 München Grand Prix Final 1500m 3:28,93 (1.) +3,37s

The longest 'rest' period between any two of those 13 races was 2 weeks. 5 of them occurred within just over 3 weeks!

The sheer number of fast times and close proximity between each represents a total, unfettered binge of fast times practically every time he raced. A similar pattern would be seen with El G and Lagat during this era. After 2004, who else had seasons that compared in quality and quantity with Ngeny's 99 season? I can't think of anyone, not even the convicted dopers of Ramzi or Kiprop.[/quote]

Ngeny (and Komen) was coached by Kim McDonald, who had worked very closely alongside Dieter Hogen (head of the Kimbia stable in Kenya in the late 90's), who was a product of the GDR system in the '80's, having been trained by Berndt Diessner alongside Straub and Beyer; the latter was named in documents uncovered after the German unification as one of a number of athletes on a state sponsored drug scheme, and one wonders how Straub ran so far above himself in one solitary race in Moscow! Hogen is also married to ex German marathon runner, Uta Pippig, herself banned for PED use in 1998 (caught by a random out of season test that still isn't used by many African nations and only recently imposed on AK - and look what has happened since then!) and had close links with the British coach/agent, Kim Macdonald.

There really is enough here to at least cast an eye of suspicion over what the likes of Ngeny and Komen did in a very short period at the end of the ‘90’s when: 1) there was no reliable test for EPO; and 2) There were too many “poor” nations that continued not to test their athletes due to cost.

Another red light for Ngeny was his meteoric rise, having only 'started running in 1996', being able to set two world junior records a year later in 1997—3:32.91 for 1500 m in Monaco and 3:50.41 for the Mile in Nice, running 3:43 for the mile 2 years after that.

I have long wondered why a former US record holder guided by Kim McDonald raised so few suspicions.

seasoned ranker wrote:

Jimmy Dean wrote:

How fast was El G as a teen? Someone earlier in the thread mentioned him being a teen prodigy. Just curious.

My favorite “WTF this can’t be true” report is actually this website that purports that Kipketer ran 1:49 as a 12 year old.

http://www.facius-homepage.dk/atletik/kipketer/biografi.html

Well, having followed his career at the time, he was for a long time credited as being born in 1970, naking his 1:49.6 (supposedly at 12) at 14! That link also has his height as 1.72m, or 2 inches shorter than Coe, which is patently absurd. He was clearly taller than Coe.

It is also strange that if he indeed was born in 1972 and ran 1:49 at 12, he was unable to break 1:47 for another 5 years, until he was 17!

There have always been 'issues' with some nations (e.g. Kenya) not being altogether honest about athletes' ages, and I wouldn't be surprised if Kipketer was one of those athletes, having read the following from a Sports Illustrated article:

"O'Connell wasn't sure how old his pupil was because Kipketer has

always been coy about his age. The latest International Track &

Field Annual, which lists his birth year as 1970, notes that

Kipketer has competed at international competitions at which he

has given his birth year as 1968 or 1972."

broken arrow wrote:

pcli5kdoc wrote:

I'll go with Henry Rono. Accomplishments on the track aside, he was also the NCAA XC champion in 1976, 1977 and 1978. Seeing him run a 5000 meter live in person on Hayward Field in Eugene is still one the most amazing athletic experiences I have ever witnessed.

I agree, pure talent it has to be Rono. If it wasn't for his problems with alcohol he would still hold some WRs. I am not knocking the other greats mentioned in this thread by any means, but again, pure talent it has to be Rono. The times he ran living an unhealthy lifestyle are just amazing.

That is a good point. I don't know a ton about his lifestyle though; was he a big drinker? Unhealthy diet? I see he definitely got fat after he retired

Whoops I'm a moran I totally skimmed over the alcohol line in the above post hahaha, that makes sense.

exrunner wrote:

Personally, I think the most talented runners of the last 150 years were all born in England a couple years apart and around their peak in the period where doping was legal with steroids and blood transfusions and there was no testing.

You have been corrected on this blatant lie several times, but keep peddling it.[/quote]

What is the lie? [/quote]

The lie is that you claim Ovett, Coe & Cram were at their peak when steroids was legal! Steroids were made illegal in 1975, long before any of their peak years. In 75 Ovett was 19, Coe 18 and Cram 14.

Your second lie is that you make a sweeping generalisation by stating 'there was no testing' during their career. This is simply not true. No, it wasn't as robust a system as today, but it was certainly happening at major champs, for world record performances and randomly by the BAAB from the early 80's in and out of competition, and out of season from 1985.

The testing in 1985 would have been better than it was in 1975, which would have been better than it had been in 1965. It's called natural development and scientific improvements.

But to say there was NO TESTING during their careers is utter nonsense.