(Road Racing and) Time Trialing and Training Thread - Week Ending 7/19/20

BHViking wrote:

Keep it up! Rooting for you!

I appreciate that the support!

Here's some hard evidence for you. These are km paces on the same course over the past 7 weeks at my 145bpm level (72% HRmax):

5/29 - 6:03

6/3 - 5:55

6/8 - 5:42

6/11 - 5:45

6/22 - 5:46

6/26 - 5:43

7/22 - 5:32

I let post the 2400 test numbers later this week. Cheers.

highhoppingworm wrote:

Ahhh. I am not 100% but I’m going to guess I run high. Probably in the 210-215 range. My wrist says I have been as high as 205 during the dog day’s of summer last year and I certainly don’t think I have maxed out.

Got it. I was just trying to get a sense of how hard (physiologically) you were going on those and also the 20 bpm difference in average HR between the first and last. with a HR max that high, the difference is a much smaller percentage than it would be for a guy with a max of 180. Yer kicking' ass! Keep it up!

Coach Jeff ROC wrote:

BHViking wrote:

Keep it up! Rooting for you!

I appreciate that the support!

Here's some hard evidence for you. These are km paces on the same course over the past 7 weeks at my 145bpm level (72% HRmax):

5/29 - 6:03

6/3 - 5:55

6/8 - 5:42

6/11 - 5:45

6/22 - 5:46

6/26 - 5:43

7/22 - 5:32

I let post the 2400 test numbers later this week. Cheers.

Nice!!! Definitely trending in the right direction at 72%. I think that's a pretty good daily effort level. Not dead easy but still very easy. Really looking forward to seeing the 2400m results. I bet they will be quite fast at higher aerobic levels of the test.

The tri guy Mark Allen..was big into heart rate training (If havent read the book "Iron War" It is a must read) .. But basically he would stay in his "patience phase" until his 8km TT at 155 bpm didnt keep progressing .. then he went to his "push phase" .. think Base into Sharpening.... he was really ahead of his time on that type of training with the help of Dr. Maffetone.

Based on a lot of what the Villanova. distance program does - I have been using HR for the last 3 weeks during the summer to try and manage effort with the awful heat and humidity.

I have been doing easy runs at no greater than 75% max HR, LT intervals at 88-92%, and tempo runs at 85-87%

My times have been significantly slower than they would have been if I was running for pace - but I've never felt better as a runner. I am curious to see how things translate when heading into some better weather.

I am trying to put ego aside and let things be as they are and sometimes it's harder than other knowing I could have ran a workout much faster.

I am treating it very much as a base phase focused on internal load and then relying on pace more when the weather breaks and I have a more concrete goal. I am running more mileage than ever in the summer and keeping the easy runs at certain HR hasn't resulted in much faster paces, but I think it eliminates a lot of the inevitable surges that occur when you zone out and maybe get into the threshold zone sometimes.

joshuaptimmons wrote:

I have been doing easy runs at no greater than 75% max HR, LT intervals at 88-92%, and tempo runs at 85-87%

My times have been significantly slower than they would have been if I was running for pace - but I've never felt better as a runner. I am curious to see how things translate when heading into some better weather.

Definitely the advantage of using the HRM. Hitting your "normal" paces in "abnormal" weather essentially changes one type of run into another type.

If you're psychologically OK with just running slower in the hot weather, you don't necessarily need the HRM. However, if you get anxious about it, the HRM can provide evidence that you're still getting the work done, despite the "pedestrian" paces.

RRR: I just read that book again. Mark Allen only used the HRM for biking, though. I'm not sure why.

I DO know that running at Maffetone HR may be good for cardiovascular development, but you're running so slow that your leg muscles, joints, and tendons are not getting strong enough to handle a 3-hour marathon. Yes, that comes from personal (and painful) experience. But for non-impact stuff like biking... it makes more sense.

Something to look into might be Stephen Seiler's methods, which are employed with a ton of success by Norwegian triathletes and XC skiers. I follow two of the top Norwegian triathletes on Strava (Kristian Blummenfelt and Gustav Iden), and they amass a ton of super slow volume and race fast. If you look at Iden's Strava, he routinely does 1-2hr off-road runs at 10min/mi or slower, keeping his heartrate in a low zone, with a lot of elevation gain. If you dig into Blummenfelt's history, there are a lot of 1-2h runs at 9:00/mi, and this is for guys racing 5k in low 14mins/high 13mins!

Personally, I like using HR as a rough guide, and I think any running at all is building aerobic fitness and making us faster. I've had long stretches where all of my running was at 8:30-9:00/mile, and then gone out and run in the mid-17s for 5km off of no speedwork at all. I won't claim that as a fast time, but for me (someone with no leg speed at all), I'll take it, particularly given the much lower injury risk of doing easy volume. I know I've seen guys on this thread running under 16 for 5km and doing a lot of training at 8:30-9:30 (!) per mile.

“ At the start of every season, he spent a long (3-month) block solely focused on aerobic threshold training, meaning that he monitored his heart rate and kept it at or below aerobic threshold (AeT) for all training sessions. Even if it meant he had to slow down or walk up a hill he did not exceed that number. Week after week he would time himself in an 8K, keeping his heart rate at or below AeT. In these time trials he would expect to see a consistent 5-6 second drop per mile per week. The theory is that during this time, his body's aerobic capabilities were increasing such that he could spare carbohydrates, rely on fat as a fuel source, and run at a faster pace at the same given heart rate. Year after year of this type of training allowed him to run at 5:30 pace with a heart rate of only 150 bpm! ”

I knew I wasn’t crazy! I think he used HR some running as well. Maybe just not in races where he would def stick to HR on the bike.

I stand corrected. But was that from Iron War?

Its from a review of the book... But I am pretty sure its in there .. but you have me doubting myself coach .. I will dig into this weekend to satisfy my curiosity .. plus its time for a reread for me. In summertime my motivation and moods both ebb and flow more than usual .. and that book always gets me raring to go for training. Guys were animals

How's everyone's week going?

I am in an Airbnb for this week and probably next. On the one-hand it has been nice to do some new running routes on the other hand I miss the consistency.

There also isn't really a good route to do a threshold run in the dark around here so I am currently deciding between sucking it up and just doing a 4 mile tempo on the track or just throwing down an unplanned 5k TT to get a base fitness gauge for this HM cycle. Something about a TT is more enticing that plodding around an oval at LT pace for 4 miles.

rucker wrote:

Something to look into might be Stephen Seiler's methods...

Might be more accurate to say that Stephen Seiler researches the XC skiers training. From my understanding he is trying to base the research on why what top athletes are doing works rather than the top athletes doing what the research says.

Being from MN where XC skiing is a high school sport it is important to note that XC skier off-season "runs" are typically on technical trails and often running with ski poles. They are going pretty easy but important to keep in mind the terrain.

Most XC skiers are also big on HR and lactate testing because they don't have any reliable pace/power measurements. Maybe that can be stryds next product, a skiing power meter.

Did they ever mention what HR's that Mark Allen would typically race at or what his approximate MaxHR was? I wonder if he had a very low MaxHR and if say 155 bpm was essentially redlining for him. If this is something like 80% of Max like it would be for me, then that is freaking amazing.

The reason I ask is that I'm always curious just how high the effort level is in people who are essentially base building with no speedwork (until exiting base) that do so with massive success. It seems like the few case studies I've found any data on at all that credit MAF to their success end up racing very near their MAF HR. In other words, their MAF HR is very likely a very high percentage of their MaxHR (just shy of their likely lactate threshold points).

His open Marathon PR was I believe 2:22-2:223 .. So that was around his MP most likely. He ran a 2:39:xx off the bike in Kona

highhoppingworm wrote:

How's everyone's week going?

I am in an Airbnb for this week and probably next. On the one-hand it has been nice to do some new running routes on the other hand I miss the consistency.

There also isn't really a good route to do a threshold run in the dark around here so I am currently deciding between sucking it up and just doing a 4 mile tempo on the track or just throwing down an unplanned 5k TT to get a base fitness gauge for this HM cycle. Something about a TT is more enticing that plodding around an oval at LT pace for 4 miles.

New routes are always fun to check out!

Why not do that 5K TT around the track so you have an absolute idea of what you need to do? It would be shorter than plodding around an oval at LT pace and you know what split you want to hit, if you have a certain time you're going for?

As far as your question goes, my week is going pretty well. Did my walk/run on Monday (5/1) and Wednesday (4/2), took yesterday pretty easy because my hip was a bit sore after also cycling on Tuesday, but got back after it today for a near 21-miler on the bike and will be hopefully doing another 4/2 hybrid on Sunday. Am also on the schedule for aqua jogging/swimming the next two days, so that will be nice.

M 26 148lb 6'4"

PRs (2018) 4:53 mi to 2:47:14 Marathon

Mn - 5 @ 7:15s w/ 6 strides

Tu - 6x400 + WU/WD = 7

Wd - 6 @ 7:15s

Fr - 5 @ 7:15s

Sa - 1600, 2x800 + WU/WD = 7

Total - 30

Maybe the mojo isnt quite back yet, bailed on 2 runs for no particular reason. Working on getting back into the routine of running everyday/seriously. Have added some light workouts to keep in touch with running quick and have a reason to get out of the door. Looks like I will run a 5miler at the end of Sept and a HM in mid October as real in-person races

-RS

runrincerepeat wrote:

His open Marathon PR was I believe 2:22-2:223 .. So that was around his MP most likely. He ran a 2:39:xx off the bike in Kona

Ok, then his MAF HR was pretty close to his marathon pace then. I imagine that his daily running was almost all very near his marathon pace. Not that there is anything wrong with that! It's just that Maffetone preaches doing all mileage at lower intensities yet many people are allowed to run at MAF at high aerobic efforts. Others, are plodding along. Perhaps by lower intensities, he just means it's a training program absent of real hard running?

So following the exact same prescription of 180 - age, this is how our daily targets would look:

Me: About 69% MaxHR which is about MP+90sec

Mark: About 88% MaxHR which is about MP+0 (supposedly this is common in well trained athletes or even higher. )

That's not even remotely the same training program. I wonder who would improve faster?(ignoring the fact I'm average at best and he's pushing elite).

I trained at my Maffetone HR (134 or about 67%HRMax) for (if memory serves) a 6 month period several years back. It was excruciatingly horrifically frustrating. Maybe because I'm more of a fast twitch guy. Maybe because I'm an aerobic pipsqueak. Maybe because it's hot and humid where I live. Maybe because I'm so old that my MAF HR calculation is almost a negative number...

Many of my runs were barely jogs. Any uphill was a walk. I kept waiting for the "After you diligently stick with it, things will improve" stage, but that never really arrived, even after half a year. However, when I subsequently went back to a Hadd base-building mode, that 145bpm felt like I was freaking flying! So maybe it did some good, but, in my experience, after giving it a fair shot, I feel like I was below a useful threshold. Those extra 10 bpm meant a lot to me.

PS: My Hadd test results were positively... ambiguous. ? I'll post in next week's thread.

Oh, and as a PS to that post...

My MAF HR last year was 129.

I ran Boston last year with an average HR of......... 184