Is Drew Hunter wasting his potential by training with Tinman?

ExPhys wrote:

Sorry Phil.

I know you love defending Tom but doing sprints "all out" at the end of 5 x 1200 and 5 x 200 seems nonsensical.

5 x 60m "all out" is a neuromuscular workout.

That completely gets defeated when the neuromuscular system is fried beforehand. Had he just stopped after the 200's I wouldn't have been as confused by the structure.

Sorry exphys... when do you need to sprint ... when your NM system has been gutted from running 62s for 4000m during an actual race. Maximum speed and power development ..sure you’d be correct, but you need to be able to run sub 59-54S over the last km after keeping pace for ~ 10:30. Practice what you wanna do when you gotta do it; Capiche ..?!

secret workouts wrote:

ExPhys wrote:

Sorry Phil.

I know you love defending Tom but doing sprints "all out" at the end of 5 x 1200 and 5 x 200 seems nonsensical.

5 x 60m "all out" is a neuromuscular workout.

That completely gets defeated when the neuromuscular system is fried beforehand. Had he just stopped after the 200's I wouldn't have been as confused by the structure.

Sorry exphys... when do you need to sprint ... when your NM system has been gutted from running 62s for 4000m during an actual race. Maximum speed and power development ..sure you’d be correct, but you need to be able to run sub 59-54S over the last km after keeping pace for ~ 10:30. Practice what you wanna do when you gotta do it; Capiche ..?!

5x60 all out is nowhere near the same thing as running 54 pace for the last half mile of a kicking race.

in fact, i'd say that is properly covered with the 27 second 200s.

practicing 5x60 at full speed, prior to neuromuscular frying, will help develop those 200s. which in turn will help the kick at the end of that 5k.

Yeah I’m gonna have to disagree on the sprints there.

There are a bunch of other reasons to practice sprinting at the end of a workout besides neuromuscular function.

Everyone was just talking about how easy this workout was, but before he starts sprinting his system is “fried”. What gives?

You will recruit FT muscle fibers regardless of where you put sprints in the workout.

These sprints I would bet are focused on improving alactic power and therefore you don’t need to be fresh when preforming them. The internal load of doing them all out fresh vs after a workout Is the exact same.

anything you do will work towards improvement if you do not get injured in the process.

A better drill at the end of the session would be accelerations or sprint/float/sprint. Full out 60's are better at the beginning (speed before endurance). I do 60-150m accelerations (20-50m changes) as three element segments (1500,800, 400m efforts progressing to 800, 400, full-out). The point is to sprint when tired (so at end of the workout), which isn't the same as doing so at the end of a repetition (last 200m of a 1km rep for example), but allows for more volume and less stress. Also not the same as doing neuromuscular 60's at the beginning. The mechanics of sprinting when tired are emphasized, but also relaxation. Both have benefits (Accel, SFS) in different ways.

Sprinting at the end of a Rep is harder and limits the session (unless just on the last rep) as it would alter the recovery required to maintain the specific intensity of the reps/intervals. Especially if the rep was a CV or LT "interval" with little recovery, attempting a sprint at the end of all the reps would completely wreck the session.

You could also do a session where you do a fast sprint after a pace rep with a short jog or rest recovery - i.e. 500+200; 400+150; 300+100, etc. then longer set recoveries. Or just sprint the last segment of reps, with necessary longer recoveries making them Reps as opposed to intervals (as in Daniels). Plenty of permutations of these kinds of things. The point of all is to practice kicking at the end of races. This is race-specific training, not fitness development training - the two are NOT the same.

sizlin;

It is about optimizing your training. Please sit down with a properly trained sprint coach who understands anaerobic development and educate yourself. It DOES matter when/where training segments are allocated/positioned in a training session for optimal development. Alactic development is compromised when positioned at the end of a session, unless it is the only component of the session.

Perhaps Tinman doesn't really care where it goes? Then either don't do it, or do it after an easy run instead (as many do) or as a stand-alone on a different training day. (see JRinaldi).

DC Runner 4 wrote:

NJ fan wrote:

5x1200-3:45-3:36-3:27-3:17-3:05

5x200-29-29-28-27-27

5x60 meter- all out

That is easily one of the dumbest workouts I've ever heard. 3:45 is 5 min pace per 1600. 3:36 is 4:48 pace. 3:05 is 4:07 pace.

It's unfortunate that Drew is brainwashed by Tinman and doesn't understand he needs a real coach.

Do not understand this workout.

Why not 5 x 1200 working from 10k to 5

K pace;

3;21, 3;18, 3;15, 3;12, 3;09

End of workout

Yeah I can't for the life of me understand why his 1200s would have a 40 second range of times. It's a short interval too, making the 40 second difference even more foolish.

Only a sith deals in absolutes....

I’m just saying this workout isn’t a bad workout. Just touching on a little bit of everything isn’t bad in the situation we are in. Isn’t Drew coming back from an injury too?

can we talk wrote:

sizlin;

It is about optimizing your training. Please sit down with a properly trained sprint coach who understands anaerobic development and educate yourself. It DOES matter when/where training segments are allocated/positioned in a training session for optimal development. Alactic development is compromised when positioned at the end of a session, unless it is the only component of the session.

Perhaps Tinman doesn't really care where it goes? Then either don't do it, or do it after an easy run instead (as many do) or as a stand-alone on a different training day. (see JRinaldi).

Just saw this now. The thing about sprinting for distance runners is that there are basically two reasons for it. 1. To improve biomechanical efficiency at strong efforts and continue those biomechanic changes through to mid distance race paces and kicks at the end of any race. 2. To improve metabolic efficiency of alactic powers and endurances.

Sprinting at the end of a workout has the potential to compromise biomechanical efficiency if you are not running relaxed enough. Sprinting at the end of a workout cannot hinder metabolic improvements.

This is why sprinters do drills with wind parachutes, sleds, etc. You don’t race with those on, but providing more resistance may elicit a greater metabolic response to overcome the drag, friction, weight, etc.

It is simply not true that alactic power and endurance can not be improved by using sprints at the end of workouts. For distance runners it is more specific to do them at the end of workouts, you are never sprinting from the gun, but you sprint the last of the race. Learning to sprint while already stressed is important for distance runners to learn sprinting while staying relaxed even if they are tired.

Alberto Salazar’s group was very well known for doing fast reps or sprints at the end of workouts, and who could beat Mo Farah over the last lap? Very few.

Sprints 60m are not about anaerobic development. They are about producing as much power as you can. There are situations where sessions of exclusively sprints should be used, yes. But they should also be included at the end of some workouts.

Your logic would imply that through doing one sprint, no sprinting after it would be effective because you are already tired. Who practices that?

NJ fan wrote:

DC Runner 4 wrote:

Do not understand this workout.

Why not 5 x 1200 working from 10k to 5

K pace;

3;21, 3;18, 3;15, 3;12, 3;09

End of workout

Yeah I can't for the life of me understand why his 1200s would have a 40 second range of times. It's a short interval too, making the 40 second difference even more foolish.

exactly. Does someone like Mo Ahmed do Tinman workouts? No he doesn’t

LRP has stated in multiple threads that Tinman doesn't believe in prescribing all out sprinting and that time would be wasted doing that instead of aerobic development.

But now it's okay?

Han Solo wrote:

LRP has stated in multiple threads that Tinman doesn't believe in prescribing all out sprinting and that time would be wasted doing that instead of aerobic development.

But now it's okay?

+1

DC Runner 4 wrote:

NJ fan wrote:

5x1200-3:45-3:36-3:27-3:17-3:05

5x200-29-29-28-27-27

5x60 meter- all out

That is easily one of the dumbest workouts I've ever heard. 3:45 is 5 min pace per 1600. 3:36 is 4:48 pace. 3:05 is 4:07 pace.

It's unfortunate that Drew is brainwashed by Tinman and doesn't understand he needs a real coach.

Do not understand this workout.

Why not 5 x 1200 working from 10k to 5

K pace;

3;21, 3;18, 3;15, 3;12, 3;09

End of workout

This is a hard session to spend some time on max HR, and train the psycological ability to go all in.

As it takes some running to reach max HR you have no interest to suffer a long time before you reach a high HR. Because it hurts bad to run at max HR. It is only in the last 3:05 he reaches max HR and probably not at max HR before the very last minute.

Afterwords the shorter intervals are about training the mental ability to go all in at the final home stretch. The first 1200m-intervals simulate the first 4800m of a 5k. You need mental strength to give it all when your legs scream no. This mental ability can be trained.

For a good example of what mental strength means have a look at XC-skiing 50km, Petter Northug, WC ,Falun, Sweden 2015:

as far as ive seen, salazar will do something like a couple fast 200 or 300 sprints at the end of a long workout. typical. not 5x60 ALL OUT.

but im certainly not privy to his full catalog of workouts.

high school xc coach wrote:

as far as ive seen, salazar will do something like a couple fast 200 or 300 sprints at the end of a long workout. typical. not 5x60 ALL OUT.

but im certainly not privy to his full catalog of workouts.

It does not make sense for physical improvement so it must be to train the mental ability to give 100% before the finish line no matter how tired he is.

Fine then make it 3:24, 3:21, 3:18, 3;15, 3;15

The "secret" key to top performance lies in separating the workouts . One workout , one purpose.

It doesn`t matter if you have tried to finish a workout very fast when tired in training if you can`t follow the pace in the race and stay quite unused to the last lap.

So, ..what you have to do is run the three main factors for the results in mostly separated workouts, maxVO2 pace, lactate threshold pace and aerobic power pace ( LSD ) , and then put in a separated pure sprint session now and then.

When you can follow in the race to the last lap and still feel quite fresh you will be able to sprint

close to your optimum sprint ability.

sizlin wrote:

Your logic would imply that through doing one sprint, no sprinting after it would be effective because you are already tired. Who practices that?

So in your world doing 5x60 is the same as doing 6000m of moderately hard aerobic work, 1000m of some what quick running and then doing 5x60m? Seems like bizzaro logic to me.

I am not sure if doing 3 1200 intervals at north of 10k pace, 1 at like 5k and 1 at 3k pace make a ton of sense but I have no idea where he is in his training scheme. Maybe if you are doing something real easy coming back to training or if you are resting up for a race.

I don’t know where you got that idea. I wouldn’t say that it’s the same thing.

Like I said before, I don’t agree with Tinman’s philosophy but this seems like a relatively light workout which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. I’m not sure, but I think Drew is returning from injury? And probably not going to be in any high level races.

Not every workout needs to be glamorous. This workout was providing without context of any of his other training. I don’t use strava or Instagram so I don’t know what is training is actually like.

I get people don’t like tinman here it’s whatever, but it’s unfair to say his training is “bad” by just taking one workout out of context and saying it’s really easy.

There are so many variables of why this workout is the way it is and I think it’s almost pretentious to just say it’s stupid or whatever.

And for the sprints at the end of a workout they are great for improving power under stress. Someone asked for clarification as I brought up salazar’s sprint training. They do have longer repeats like 400s at a sprint pace basically after hard workouts as well as short stuff that’s around 120m and shorter.

I know coming up to London one of their sessions at the end Mo and Galen did 3x400 in 52 and 1x100m in something close to 11 mid or low (can’t remember the exact split).

That was after 6x1k at 5k pace with a 500m jog.

I dunno why people think sprinting at the end of a workout is a bad idea.